Large map for testing

[Relic]

Screenshots and file here:
http://www.evem.org.au/clan.nsf/docs/2001072400581695

Likes/dislikes/suggestions/generalhelpfulness appreciated!

[Cincinnatus]

that looks really awesome.
the only thing that I can suggest is to add maybe some detail to the towers and wall to make it a little less boring (its just sort of monochromatic right now). Maybe an ivy texture or something would add to the overall "prettiness?"

[Cincinnatus]

man that map punished my system... my framerate was as low as 4 FPS... i think that if you want to have this as a deathmatch map, it will have to be a little easier on the ol' computer. Man, though was that a pretty level. all sorts of neat innovations.

suggestions to improve framerate:
-make fewer steps of larger height and length in the  towers
-cut off a lot of the mountain... the parts that you can't climb back up from serve no discernable purpose as far as I can tell
-maybe simplify the towers themselves

but all in all this was the coolest map I've seen in a long time. I said "wow" or "oh man" many times looking at the architecture. Just as often, however, I felt sorry for the repetitive texturing... maybe that is just evidence that this map it a work in progress.

This map is damn good.

[Relic]

Thanks Cincinnatus.

I knew from the start that this map would push the limits, that's the point of it I guess. I'm still keen tho to find out if I can use new methods/improvements to make it more playable. I'll give any suggestions a go.

You're right about the textures. Its partly due to it being unfinished, and also because I'm not going to use any SS textures with the Egyptian theme. The Bighouse should solve that problem (thanks Nilspack) :>

The reason I released it at this early stage is to find out how playble (or not) it is and get ideas to help optimise it. Thanks for your input.


(Edited by Relic at 2:26 pm on July 25, 2001)

[Cincinnatus]

just looked around in the map again, thought of another thing: maybe by making the bottom of the stairs flat instead of stepped, polys will be saved... not sure, as the flat surface at the bottom would have to be curved in a helix, so it may or may not help.

[mr luc]

Quick question -- are all of your stairs flagged as detail?

For those towers, I would actually reccommend flagging ALL the polys as detail, except for *possibly* the straight up-and-down polys of the tower exteriors and interiors . . . even then, that's pretty nasty. The slowdown comes first from the visibility checks, and second from hte sheer amount of polygons. I think the vis checks are probably the worst of it, however.

[Relic]

Cincinnatus:
I didn't use sloping bottom stairs because they look so thin and flimsy. I could add another one to the base I guess and join them. Worth a try - anyone else know if this will make a big difference?

mr luc:
The stairs are added as a layer. As far as I know this effectively makes them detail.
As for the towers, I could mark the "crown" at the top as detail. The bulk of it will remain non-detail though.
Hmmm, 36 sided cylinders look nice, but they come at a price. :>

The only way I know of to cut down on the vis checks is to split the sectors of the world box all around the towers.
I tried this but it broke lots of polys all over the sides of the castle and on the terrain. :(
If I started all over again...

Thanks for the comments!

[Earthling]

Nope, being in a layered brush doesn't make the polys detail. And if the towers aren't gonna block any sectors, you should set the polygons to detail, just try it, it's a HUGE speed booster.

[Relic]

Thanks Earthling

Ahh, I've got a lot of detailing to do. ;>
The towers only block one sector - the inside of the tower.
I guess I could make all of the outside faces of the tower wall detail - is that what you meant?

[mr luc]

Here's the deal:

The way your level is set up currently, you've got a lose-lose situation, unless you make some changes.

You'll get rid of the biggest problem, the problem of visibility checks on all the polygons, if you flag EVERYTHING as detail. But what detail means is that it doesn't block *anything* -- so from hte outside, you could see everything that is inside your towers. Meaning the stairs. :(

The best way to address this is to figure out how far away from the stairs you can see them normally, and then use Michael Harris' Mip Brush/LOD Tutorial and create a mip brush of your stars. Make the second mip brush completely empty. This means that once you get far enough away from your stairs, they will not be rendered at all. Adjust the distance to your liking. Also, I would 'seriously' consider making a mip brush of at least the top crown.

Another thing I would consider is using 16-sided cylinders. They look surprisingly good, and if that's not detailed anough, you might consider 20 or 24-sided -- but you've *got* to get that exterior polycount down if you want people running around out there.

Also, and this is important -- can you see the interior of one tower from the other? That could be a problem; your biggest slowdown (after you've marked it all detail) will come from your stairs. Having one set visible *might* not kill the framerate, as long as it's detail (although you should definitely use some form of occlusion to keep the crown from being rendered if you are in the interior of the tower; crown and stairs *both* will give you much big hurt).

But if your second set is visible as well, you have troubles, because you'd have to set the mipmodel to a higher distance, and you'd be rendering 2 sets of stairs the entire time. However, if they aren't visible to each other, you could use a much closer mip distance, along with perhaps a couple of occluders hidden in the rock, to help out with visibility.

These hints hould help a bit; I'm interested in how high a level of detail we can maintain in this very specific and traditional instance. It would be great if we ended up being able to use some of Sam's power to run this smoothly, because that level of detail would easily lag a Quake 3 map.

[Cincinnatus]

the sheer amount of space under the castle too seems excessive... i think that the entire area (unless you want ladders or something to reunite lost dm'ers) should be removed. as it is now, once you fall, you have no way short of suicide or cheating to get back on top of the plateau.

(Edited by Cincinnatus at 1:32 am on July 27, 2001)

[endonosis]

Well I hope you're happy with yourself. Your damn map made me crash! I go up to the top of one of the towers, climb into a catapult and in mid-flight I look down. BAM! Nothing happens for 5 minutes. I reboot. Nice map, shitty performance.

[Relic]

mr luc:
I'm with you on the idea of keeping as much detail as possible and using detail & mip brushing to make it playable.

I think the stairs mip will work from a reasonable distance, but the open doorways from the tower to the roof level will mean they will have to at least look something like stairs. Anyone know if the sloping stair replacement is a low enough poly count to make a difference? At least then you'd see something that resembled stairs.

I've got a lot to learn before I can do this stuff, but with this much interest I'll persevere with this map. Thanks for the ideas!

Cincinnatus:
I made the island large for two reasons, one so that your fall off the edge would be a nice big one ;> and the other so that I could have underground space to add more areas.

I agree that the ledge only serves to prolong your demise at this point. I kept it because I will eventually have a tunnel through from that underground area I just mentioned.
Also a single player version of this map could use an area like that - if it ever eventuates.

As for the water, I plan to use forcefield to drag you under. I'm hoping that will fulfil your deathwish. :P If that's too slow I can substitute lava damage for the cold damage. I haven't done it yet because I want to make sure you can't see the outer box, it should appear as a dark ocean.

endonosis:
(Nelson voice) Ha-ha. :>

PS: I hope you guys have found the two secret areas. Not that you should say what they are on this board, just tell me if you have...

[Cincinnatus]

heh, i havent really looked around for secrets, i think i have an inkling of at least one though :)

[Smithboy]

I've never had a lower fps in any map before! WTF? You're using way too many polys.

[Relic]

Smithboy:

I think lowering the polys would kinda defeat the purpose. I'll do it where necessary, but I'm trying to retain all that smooth round goodness and stuff. :P

Come back later when I've had a chance to make all the changes suggested here and you might find it a little easier on your system.

[Smithboy]

U almost killed my poor old cpu :(
hehe ok I though you maybe wanted to make a playable level, but I take it you want to show it off for it's beauty.