Answering your questions

[2K Sam]

Hi Everyone,

It's me again, 2K Sam. First, I'd like to say thank you for your comments both good and bad. Since a lot of you asked the same questions I'll give the over-arching answers to your queries.

Also, I had intended to reply earlier, but I couldnt find my original thread. I needed Jason's help to find it again. (He's the moderator). And I have to say I'm not really keen on the style of this message board tech. I read and post blogs regularly (nothing video game related) and am used to replies being threaded so I can answer to each of you individually. Jason suggested this method. It's also a small reason why I dont respond so quickly to this stuff. Anyway so here goes:

I am the Product Marketing Manager for Serious Sam 2 at 2K. I am responsible for all the marketing (packaging, ads, managing the budget) and providing assets (screens, videos) to our PR department. I work closely with Croteam to get what's needed to market Serious Sam 2 as best as possible. Yes, I've played Sam 2 from back when it was almost unplayable to finished product and while there is a special place in my heart for Sam 2 (as with all the games I work on) I will not pretend to be as close to the game as you guys and gals. You are the driving force, my job is to take it beyond the "core" fans and appeal to others. Ultimately, we want to sell as many copies as possible. And as hindsight is always 20/20 there are things I would probably do a little differently.

A bunch of you asked why there was no DVD version released in the US. We were going to release a DVD version, but it was canned. Here's the situtation: Many, many, many people do not read labels on boxes. I myself have been at an EB where someone was trying to return a copy of the Sims on PC because it wouldnt play on their computer. The reason? They have a CD drive and it was the DVD version. It sounds stupid, but well... it is what it is. Basically, there was a lot of back and forth internally (at 2K/Take-two) about what format we should release on. The retailers said we need to provide it on CD. We were going to do DVD only at EBs and Gamestops and CDs everywhere else. Well, the preorders weren't that great for the DVD version so the retailers didn't order any. As such, we cancelled it. And, it would have been cheaper to manufacture on DVD. So that was all out of our hands so to speak. It basically came down to a question of demand.

Regarding things that were cut from the game. This is a tricky one and touches on the "why was this game rushed to release" and "why not release it 'when it's done'". It's also a bigger issue with the industry with relation to the publisher/developer relationship. I'm not going to go into the details of the T2/Croteam relationship because 1) I dont know them 2) it's not my place to divulge them. In general terms, typically, developers who want to make a game shop their concept around and publishers pay them to finish the game by a certain time. Developers, especially smaller ones, usually have a very early demo to show off of the game and it's features. Larger, more well known developers who have a track record of successful hits can usually pitch their concepts without showing anything but a concept document.

So agreements are made that a game will be done by a certain time. The publisher plans their finances around that date forecasting a certain number of sales and revenue. To keep things on track publishers hire producers to work with the developer and manage the development process as well as give gameplay feedback, etc. The publisher pays the developer based on milestones where the developer is contractually obligated to have certain things in the game working. Now, we all know that things dont always work out as planned. It's happened with A LOT of games. Features get cut, release dates slip and bugs get left in. It comes down to economics - at what point can the publisher no longer push a game back and have to release it in order to make money or, at the very least, break even? It's different for every game and it's not always fair, but it is what it is. Also, with PC titles this is even more lax because you can always patch it later. Now, this isn't to say that publishers dont want to put out quality product. Of course we do! But, if there arent deadlines then some developers will just keep on going. There are so many factors involved with this that I cannot even begin to breech - terms of payment and the contract, forecasts, state of the game, etc. Not the answer y'all want to hear I'm sure, but that's the answer, or at least, the reason why features get cut.

"cartoony" look and graphics. Y'all have mentioned a lot of stuff that is development oriented. I dont want to be so presumptious as to answer them since it is Croteam's purvue. Sam is their baby. I know the Croteam guys talk on here (no I didn't rip out their vocal cords!) so I'll leave it up to them to reply. However, I will forward all your thoughts about things like the humor, graphics and weapons onto them. Also note, that some of you liked and some of you didnt. You can't please all the people all the time...

The "bad" demo and no marketing. We thought the demo was good. Demos are a tricky thing. You dont want to give away too much where the end user will think "that's all I need" and not buy the game. On the other hand, you need to give out enough to entice people to buy the game. The demo has to be good enough to do that also or you risk turning a lot of people off. In short, lesson learned on my part. As far as the lack of marketing, I ran print and online ads. In hindsight I may have waited until after launch. I probably should have focused more on the PC market too, but there were other factors too that I cannot mention. Sam is a unique property and I should have pushed more for certain things. That's all I can say about this.

Linux client, deathmatch and the editor. Hooboy. Ok. Yes, they are in the works. No, I dont know when they will be available. I'm supposed to find out in the next couple of weeks. When I do, we'll probably announce the details through the usual PR channels, but I'm going to push to let you guys know first. No promises on that one. I have people that need to approve what I do too.

The old console vs. PC debate. Sam2 could not have been released for 360 instead of xbox at the same time because they are two totally different sets of hardware. Believe me, I think Sam2 would have kicked ass as a 360 launch title. Also, some of you thought that Sam2 was developed for Xbox and ported over to PC. You are half right. It was actually developed for the PC and then scaled to fit the Xbox. Side by side you can see that Sam2 PC looks alot more detailed and such than the Xbox version especially if you are playing in a super-high-end gaming rig with all the graphic bells and whistles turned on.

Finally, I wanted to reply specifically to ZEN who struck me with his post about "getting involved in the community". I WISH I could do a conference call. I WISH I could do a lot of those things. However, I don't want to take on these things and have nothing come of them. It's not fair to you. What if we had a big call and I took down all your recommendations for the game and handed them off and none of them were implemented? Believe me I am a big advocate of the open source model. I've been asking to see if we cant do a project where the fans decide and create art, models, features, etc. Unfortunately, it doesnt look like that will happen for a host of reasons. Also, I'm new to this site and community and don't know about the polls and stuff going on. (I also dont think this message board is very user-friendly, sorry Jason.) I do not believe I've misdirected or mislead you in anyway. I give you that I may have said something on here that was later changed, but never intentionally. You guys had great ideas and I did what I could to carry them out. Marketing ideas anyway. Also, I want to reiterate that I am not the fan that you guys are. You live and breathe the end product while I work very had and long to get that end product to you, as does Croteam.

It's also lame that I dont always have time to come on here and chat, but when deadlines loom and things are crazy...

Anyway, I appreciate your candor and you do have valid points. I cannot just insert myself into a community and come to you at my leisure. I broke the fundamental rule of grassroots politicking - don't take the community for granted. Cooping with you guys is a fantastic idea. Not that I can do anything regarding game development (I'm all marketing), but it still would have been cool. (sigh)


All right, so that's it. I'll check in from time to time, but I'm working on a whole bunch of other games that are coming out real soon. I'll see if I can arrange something with croteam so they can answer your development questions.

It was a wild and crazy ride, but for now it's over. You're all great. Croteam reads these boards so your opinions aren't going unnoticed and I will give them a wrap-up too. I did my best to involve you guys, unfortunately it was a little late in the game. Woulda coulda shoulda.

Life is learning and this was a great experience.

Peace, love and recycle yo...

-R-

[Stride_r]

As it is no use complaining and pointing fingers here n there... lets hope that croteam comes out with a better SS2 - 2nd enc

but 2k Sam, i have just 2 things

I am the Product Marketing Manager for Serious Sam 2 at 2K. I am responsible for all the marketing (packaging, ads, managing the budget) and providing assets (screens, videos) to our PR department. I work closely with Croteam to get what's needed to market Serious Sam 2 as best as possible.

1. I am poor @ geography n all, but I think that a country called India exists on this planet Earth. Ok, India is in Asia. Correct me if I am wrong . Its Novermber18th today and there is no Sign of SS2 hitting the shelves here. Since ur to do with marketing, this is something u shud take up seriously. I donno how many people will buy it here, but I will, i dont care if it's a good game or bad game, i just wanna try it out.

2. SS:2nd enc was OWNAGE stuff... just make something on the lines of that, i mean use new graphics, new locations n all, but keep the same weapons (ok add new ones if u want to, but dont remove the old ones), add new enemies, add vehicles, keep those wacko concepts of slippery floor, bouncy floor, head spinning graviyt levels, etc etc... n u will see that most of us here will fall @ ur feet ... In simple words, take whatever that is there in SS: 2nd enc and add new stuff to it, dont delete anything that got into the making of SS:2nd enc... n please make those bulls a little more *serious*... and make sure that a weapon feels like a weapon, not a walking stick

That's about it...

-Strider-

[Shrinker]

Nice explanation of things, I appreciate it.

[seriousbird]

Hi Everyone,


A bunch of you asked why there was no DVD version released in the US. (...)

So this story is one more proof, that in US not only the
president is a dumb idiot :-)

[CHFlagg]

2K Sam,

Thank you for explaining the lack of DVD in the US, it is nice to know the reasons why. When I pre-ordered I had a hard time finding the DVD to order ( this was before the announcement.

Again Thanks for the reply.

[The Serious Spoon]

Thanks 2KSam, that explained a lot. I'm looking forward to your post about Linux client/deathmatch/editor

[Psykomanius]

"Regarding things that were cut from the game..."

Now i just hope this will came back again, in a update or small addon.

[Louva-Deus]

Regarding things that were cut from the game. This is a tricky one and touches on the "why was this game rushed to release" and "why not release it 'when it's done'".

The real question is, will these features be added back in? We know about deathmatch, the editor, and linux versions but what about the rest?

Also, I had intended to reply earlier, but I couldnt find my original thread. I needed Jason's help to find it again. (He's the moderator). And I have to say I'm not really keen on the style of this message board tech. I read and post blogs regularly (nothing video game related) and am used to replies being threaded so I can answer to each of you individually. Jason suggested this method. It's also a small reason why I dont respond so quickly to this stuff.
...
(I also dont think this message board is very user-friendly, sorry Jason.)

This is a standard message board format that is used by the majority of gaming communities, so you should try to get used to it. Since it is not threaded the usual format for replying to specific posts is using the [quote] tag. To find your previous posts click here.

[MDx3000]

Now, this isn't to say that publishers dont want to put out quality product. Of course we do! But, if there arent deadlines then some developers will just keep on going.
-R-

Why does that particular sentence get's me thinking about a 3Drealms game? Hmmm...

Anyway, great to hear from you, I was happy to see the DVD version here in Sweden
I hate stickin' in Disc after Disc. Especially with something MODable, otherwise if you screw something up by mistake and have to reinstall, it means another CD-nightmare :p
Hopefully it will work out better with the next Serious Release. I mean, manual still contained stuff that had been cut out. Thank Feetal for you words 2K Sam!

[gmontem]

Thanks for the answers, 2K Sam. Hope to see you in and out of these forums in the future, and I hope this game does more than break even, turn a nice profit, and secure SS3's future.

[Artman40]

O.K. I hope I got all of it.

But most of all,While there comes a sequel in a distant future, [a wise man once said 'soon' (in development language), 'in 2 weeks' or 'when it's done' to be precise] it will have a great potential to correct mistakes from the past.

[maxmtu]

2K Sam;

Thanks a ton dude

Croteam;
Bring on the Linux Client !!

[booger]

Instead of canceling the dvd edition because people are too stupid to notice it's a dvd, why not just print "DVD Edition" in big letters on the box? That would satisfy both the stupid people AND the folks who want the dvd of the game.

I don't know about anyone else, but I know that a dvd version of a game is actually a selling point for me. Conversely, having to shuffle 5 cds is a reason to avoid a game. It's not usually the deal breaker for me, but it is something I notice.

[Pooper]

yes, a clearly marked DVD version would help
personally, I don't mind 5 cds so long as I only have to do it once, when I install.

[LactosetheIntolerant]

This is the first time I've heard of people returning a game because they bought a DVD version when they dont have a DVD drive, but somehow I'm not surprised at all. What could be more clear than a little box in the corner that says PC-CD-ROM. or DVD-ROM. any clearer than that and youre going to lose real estate on the box for fancy graphics and made-up review comments.

[Buaku]

Mebbe it's just me, but wouldn't most PC's these days with enough power to run the latest n greatest fancy games have a DVD drive in it anyway. To me that kinda thing goes hand in hand.

Plus if you don't pay attention to what you're gettin it's your own damn fault. Learn ya to pay more attention next time.

And just maybe putting a great game onto DVD would convince more people get DVD drives, or give em that extra push they need to decide if they wanna get one or not.

[mikedawwg]

Maybe if they put removable stickers on the box that says 'DVD' in big huge, bright red letters? You would have to be blind in order to NOT see that it is a dvd, or cd-rom.

Anyhoo, thanks for the answers...

There is still however the audio issues, although we have come up with temporary solutions, it'd be nice to know if they are working on a patch to fix this? It is kinda annoying to have to take several steps before you can even play the game. Not demanding or anything, I'm just curious to know if it is in the works, and if possible, an ETA of when it might come out....thanks!!

[ElfShotTheFood]

This is the first time I've heard of people returning a game because they bought a DVD version when they dont have a DVD drive, but somehow I'm not surprised at all.

I picked up a bunch (about 25) of DVD-Rom versions of The Sims 2 for $5 each because people bought them and brought them back to the store because they didn't have a DVD-Rom drive (even though it says 'Special DVD-Rom Edition' in big letters across the top of the box).

Ended up selling them all on eBay for $20 - $25 each.

[Viper114]

The problem with "DVD Edition" games these days is that they usually equal "Collector's/Director's/Special/etc... Edition" that costs about $10 to $30 more than the regular game because not only is it on a single DVD rather than 4 to 6 CDs, they throw a whole bunch of other extra stuff that, sometimes, just isn't worth it. This is simply because DVD is not yet the mainstream disc media that CD currently is, which it should be, or should be very close, at this point in time.

The "cartoony" graphics? They actually fit for SS2. It's meant to be a goofy and funny game, like a cartoon is usually a goofy and funny TV show. They aren't "super-hyper-mega-ultra HL2/Doom3/F.E.A.R graphics", but that's fine with me. At least SS2 is a lot more system requirement friendly than Doom 3 or F.E.A.R is (HL2 is also system requirement friendly, but only on DX7 mode).

The content that was cut? Well, that's what makes the PC somewhat better than a console. You can make up for the cut out content in a patch that can make the owners of the game happy. *Hint, hint*

PC vs console? I'm fairly certain SS2 would've been a very nice-looking game on the 360, since most of the game for the next-gen consoles look like that. But, you had to make with what was available, and I don't think Croteam had a 360 development kit on hand at that time. And it makes sense that the game is built unrestricted on the stronger system, than reworked to fit the weaker of the two. It's just like RE4 for the GC to PS2 issue. Sacrifices must be made for the weaker system, but you can get still get the basic fundamentals of the game to work.

SS2 was NOT a flop, despite what some reviewers are saying. They were expecting something completely different from what the original SS games were. For some reason, they figured "it was the same, repetitive and monotonous thing as before". What were they expecting, something along the lines of F.E.A.R or the like? SS was meant to go along the lines of classic shooters (Duke Nukem, Classic Doom, Classic Quake, etc...), and the whole series accomplished that. SS2 faithfully delivered what was expected of the SS series. A quirky, cartoony FPS that played like the old school FPS we grew up with. And it did so successfully.

Those who don't agree with that didn't really play SS2. Period.

[ZEN]

I agree on all counts ,still common sence approch to games and gameing are imo getting too serious these days.

get the damn game out and do it right the first time and dont get mentioned as the idot that packaged produced or shiped it if theres a problem but oh no...its like evryone involed is fudgeing the package to get noticed.

Its mercy **** advertizeing imo.

Then the critics...shit, I dont even want to go into them its bad enuff to see them rant I dont want to watch them cry too.hehe

[ledhead1969]

So this story is one more proof, that in US not only the
president is a dumb idiot :-)

Did we drop a bomb on your house? You don't speak the language, so I assume we must have dropped a bomb on your hut and you are angry at the Prez.

[James]

Hmm... Lots to respond to, so I'll do the old quote -n- reply method to keep it tidy.

am the Product Marketing Manager for Serious Sam 2 at 2K. I am responsible for all the marketing (packaging, ads, managing the budget) and providing assets (screens, videos) to our PR department. I work closely with Croteam to get what's needed to market Serious Sam 2 as best as possible.

Hi, I work gaming retail and so am responsible for selling your game, which I do as much as possible. I'm also writing the review of Serious Sam II for the website I work for, www.got-next.com , and am just taking a break to freshen up my brain.

We were going to do DVD only at EBs and Gamestops and CDs everywhere else. Well, the preorders weren't that great for the DVD version so the retailers didn't order any.

I reserved the DVD version, but don't consider it a tragedy that I couldn't get one. Having it all on one disk would have been more efficient, but four CDs isn't going to kill me. I only have to worry about it when I install, after all, and that only happens once.

Some people can't tell the difference, but those with DVDs do like to use their machines for the intended purpose. DVD versions always sell out before CD, but that's because we're never sent anywhere near enough of them. It's a frustrating transitional time.

Regarding things that were cut from the game.

All will be forgiven with an expansion pack.

"cartoony" look and graphics.

Not your problem. It's thrown me for a loop, I admit, but if it's an internal development issue then it's outside your influence. Still, exploding-pie clowns are nowhere near as cool as headless kamikazes.

I probably should have focused more on the PC market too,...

I know it sold far better on PC where I work than console, although I can't speak for the WalMarts of the world. In my personal experience, Serious Sam is a PC product that has a bit of a console following, rather than the other way around. Your numbers may prove me wrong, but until I hear otherwise I'll keep thinking that.

Also, some of you thought that Sam2 was developed for Xbox and ported over to PC.

What can we say, the game feels like it was developed with more limited hardware in mind. Smaller levels with fewer enemies, not to mention the whole "lives" thing carried over from the first Serious Sam Xbox version, certainly gave that impression.

What if we had a big call and I took down all your recommendations for the game and handed them off and none of them were implemented?

Now that's some scary talk right there. Croteam is the developer, not us. We trusted them for Serious Sam: First Encounter and Second Encounter and they delivered, and delivered hard. They know what their fans like thanks to being active on the boards, and they know how to make games. Our job as fans isn't to stand over Croteam's shoulder, but to talk about the game and what we liked and didn't. Croteam's job is to listen and decide what they think is valid and what's just missing the point. Handing in a list of fan requests sounds like a recipe for disaster to me, for exactly the reason you mention.

My only issues with Serious Sam 2 are the changes made to it from the earlier games. Smaller levels, goofier enemies (Kleer excepted, their redesign is great!), easier difficulty, no bizarre areas like the tube or bouncy room in SS:Second Encounter, a final boss that's fun enough but doesn't have the punch it feels like it should have had, and an ending that tries to turn it into a joke.

Also, adding in lives just doesn't work. I always reload after a death because I shouldn't have died in the first place. Extra lives are great for arcade machines, but not so necessary in a PC game. Especially seeing as the levels load so fast, and instantly reset themselves if you just need to go back to an earlier point in the level you're in.

The thing is, these are all gameplay issues rather than marketing ones. The game shipped on time, at a good price, and with a large chunk of the gaming world aware of its existence. That's marketing's job done then.

I like the Serious Sam games a lot. I like fast, arcade-style action and don't care in the slightest if I ever play an FPS set in whatever war zone is popular at the moment. I wish some things about SSII were different, but the gameplay itself (especially in the later levels when the difficulty level gets back to where it should be) survived intact.

One last thing-

It was a wild and crazy ride, but for now it's over.

Not for me. There's still a major patch coming, and after that I expect news on an expansion pack pretty quick.

James

[Ywap]

I followed a link from VE3d that said : "2K Reflects on Serious Sam 2 Mistakes"

Mistakes?

Personally i find SS2 the best game i´ve played this year and i bought it together with the "big" titles Q4 and F.E.A.R.

None of those is even close to SS2. Period.

Cartoony graphics?

It´t an art style, and i find it very appealing. Best looking game since Far Cry.

I also love the humor and the small movies between the levels.

If you buy a Serious Sam game, what do you expect? Being pushed in the corner by tons of enemies with all guns blazing, great graphics and over the top humour? At least that´s what i expected and i got all of it and a little more. So, why the mediocre reviews? Did the press expect a stealth game? Serious Stealth 2? I don´t think Croteam ever was on a mission to reinvent the fps genre, just to take the SS style one step further, and they certainly did!

Thank you Croteam and 2K Games, you did a great job!

[Gimli]

for mikedawwg:
http://forums.seriouszone.com/showthread.php?t=45824

P.S.
Yes, dual-core patch is coming really soon, and it looks like we managed to fix all the issues. Including the workaround for sound issues on mediocre AC-something integrated sound boards with bad bad bad drivers! :/

Also, adding in lives just doesn't work. I always reload after a death because I shouldn't have died in the first place. Extra lives are great for arcade machines, but not so necessary in a PC game. Especially seeing as the levels load so fast, and instantly reset themselves if you just need to go back to an earlier point in the level you're in.

I also think I should say some things about the lives.

Lives are there to separate good gamers from bad ones. Bad ones use QS/QL, but the real men use lives. Think about it, it's much harder to play if you have a limited amount of reloads available. Heck, that fight in Kukulele prison (under the shiny sphere) isn't very easy even on normal (OK, to be completely honest I forgot to use the grenades), I was down to 1 life (1+0). So if you want the difficulties to be like in previous games, play it with lives.

I didn't like lives at first either, but when I started looking at things this way, it changed my mind, and it's a whole lot more fun.

Of course, no one is stopping you from using QS/QL, but don't be surprised if you hear people whisper: (wuss, wuss, wuss...). (j/k)

[James]

Nah, I only ended up using QL/QS a few times per level except for the final areas. Plus the only penalty for exceeding the life count is a score frozen at the point the last life was lost. I'd rather do a Quick Save 3-4 times a level (more is cheating) than have 5 lives plus whatever else I earn.

I forgot to mention my main issue with lives, though. When resurrected, you get a nice bump in ammo. I'd much rather redo a section with my original health and ammo levels than magically be bumped back up to full on each.

It's all opinion, of course.

James

[Artman40]

Looks like I'm the only person who dosen't like cartoony graphics. Maybe because it just isn't a key component of Serious Sam series. Bright and colorful looks more of a key component for me.

[pixelat3d]

Thanks for responding, it's a very rare thing for someone in your position to do, kudos. Unfortunately however everything you said is bullshit. Not to say that it's a lie or anything like that, but it's bullshit as in it is the same canned PR excuse heard around the world, further illuminating the relationship between developers / publishers / retail stores, showing it for exactly what it is. Almost every 'issue' mentioned could be avoided with an on-line distribution model. Developers take notice and learn, publisher's are in fact the enemy. You're all artists, don't forget what that means.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

[Unholy Messias]

The live system with the serious sam 1 on xbox is really good but it makes the game too easy, the live system in serious sam 2 is worthless on the other hand because you dont respawn but just start over. The lives can be removed without any consequence, the most people use quicksaves or normal saves instead.

[Gimli]

Almost every 'issue' mentioned could be avoided with an on-line distribution model.

A lot of people still don't have fast speed internet, it would be unfair to them. Maybe in 2-3 years.

[seriousbird]

Did we drop a bomb on your house? You don't speak the language, so I assume we must have dropped a bomb on your hut and you are angry at the Prez.

Can't exactly tell. Maybe I was seriously deathmatching , than probably I wouldn't notice. But you're bombing so much, probably you can't remember , too :-)