Seriously!

Go Back   Seriously! Forums > Serious Sam Series > Serious Sam 3

Serious Sam 3 Everything you want to know or say about Serious Sam 3!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 11-11-2016, 10:07 PM   #1   Add To Ignore List  
Albino Cyclops
 
Sacorguy79's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Location: Canada
 
Sacorguy79 is offline
Default How would you design the game?

So, in the middle of taking a shower, I began to ponder over a number of things in Sam 3 that I would've loved to see changed, tested, or outright redesigned. The amount of ideas that popped into mind are of overwhelming proportion, so I figured "Eh, why not use the forums to spew out all my trash opinions". I wouldn't be surprised if a thread like this has already existed, but rather than potentially necro said thread, starting a new one seems relatively harmless.

Sam 3 is a game that I've played very often and subsequently grown to love, but there are obviously a number of flaws in it that people have voiced over the past 5 years. The setting, the gameplay elements, etc. I think Sam 3 had potential to be something much greater than the end-product, and I won't chalk that up simply to having a deadline to meet. There are numerous design choices that I found disagreeable or needed some form of tweaking, so here's how we're breaking things down:

We'll cover a broad range of categories that make up the gameplay elements of Sam 3 (and if there are any which I've missed, feel free to address them yourself). There's Sam's abilities, Monsters, Weapons, Setting, and Battles. There are no limits to what you can imagine you'd change or add if you were a master developerprogrammerdesignerwhatever. Alternately, if there are things about Sam 3 which you did like but felt needed adjustments (I sit in that category), I encourage you to share them.

Sam's Abilities

Sam's basic athleticism - Understandably, Sam's default running speed was brought down to more of a jogging pace to compensate for the smaller, realistically scaled world. Nevertheless, I would slightly increase Sam's regular running speed, as well as remove movement slowdown encountered in underground or building sections. Sam's jump height I would leave unmodified.

Reloading, Aiming, and Sprinting - I am personally comfortable with all of these new features, they do add an interesting layer to the gameplay.

Monsters

Just to note, I may bring up path-finding improvements for certain monsters, as it is still of a somewhat primitive nature in the final product. Notably, enemy usage would broadly increase, mixing different monsters with each other to create interesting battles.

Female Gnaar - I would improve Gnaar AI by allowing them to take a chomp at the player as a slightly higher damaging attack. I would allow them to climb over walls of a certain height independently, and also give them the ability to punch down most objects or breakable stone walls obstructing their path. If a player were to stand on top of a breakable wall, Gnaars would actively destroy the wall to bring the player down to their level.

Beheaded Rocketeer - otherwise known as cannon fodder. I don't know who thought that placing multiple armies after armies of purple people was an interesting concept, but given how downgraded these enemies are, I would recommend making them somewhat more intimidating if you're going to pull that kind of stunt.

I would decrease their reload times and rate of fire for their missile launchers, as well as allow them to cancel out firing animations to kick a player away if he/she inches too close.

New Enemy: Beheaded Firecracker - Having these enemies included would encourage players to stay on their toes and jump to avoid the trail of fireballs. Similarly to the Rocketeers, they would act more aggressively toward someone invading their personal space.

New Enemy: Beheaded Bomber - Another method of encouraging players to stay on the move, bombers have potential to not only be used as basic ground forces, but additionally can be placed strategically on higher ledges. Again, like the Rocketeers and Firecrackers, they won't hesitate to kick a player away if he/she is in melee range.

Beheaded Kamikaze - I recall in the "Making of" movie for this game, they showed a Kamikaze actively climbing on top of debris or cars to reach the player. Kamikazes should climb shit. They have a target, and they'll use any method they can to reach their target.

Antaresian Spiders - Placement and movement is more key than anything. I would have spiders perched on ceilings or clinging to the walls (especially in some of the tomb sections), and if the player chooses to ignore them, the spiders would actively abandon their positions to pursue their prey, and continue to behave as they would normally zerg-rush the player.

Cloned Soldiers - I would force their cover system a little less, and also give them abilities similar to the Orc Soldiers from Sam II; Cloned Soldiers could be considered more elite monsters by having the advantage of strafing and firing simultaneously, breaking away from conventional "stop and shoot" tactics which most enemies in Sam games use.

Sirian Werebull - As per Sam's movement speed increase, Werebull speeds would also receive a respective speed boost to match that of the player.

Technopolyp - Firstly, these fuckers should not be immune to bullets/shells/lasers. I would recommend giving them a 50% increase to these forms of damage, merely encouraging the use of explosives, rather than forcing it. Secondly, Technopolyps should have a "Stun" animation, whereupon receiving enough damage, a part of the helicopter explodes, temporarily leaving it unable to defend itself. Thirdly, I would decrease their machinegun damage by a reasonable sum.

Scythian Witch-Harpy - The first problem is how Harpies cannot exactly use a diving swoop effectively unless placed in a very large open environment. I would modify it so that if there isn't enough space for a Harpy to lunge for a melee attack, it would instead cast spells. Speaking of which, I would increase the spell-cast rate a bit, then decrease their recovery time after a failed swoop, and enlarge their hitboxes to make them less awkward to hit. Their flinching properties would also be changed so that they do not always flinch backwards no matter what angle they're shot from. Their melee attack would only be avoidable by strafing out of the way, moving backwards in a straight line would not suffice unless the player were to sprint away.

Lastly, with all of these stats being modified, I would use them in more levels. Those wide open Egyptian temples just beg to have aerial forces added to them.

Cave Demon - Increase the aggressive attack patterns, but I would also remove some sections sprawling with them entirely.

Khnum - Instead of making them immune to bullets/shells/lasers, I would give them a whopping 75% resistance to these damage types. Next, I would change the requisite for their sprinting attack. They would have to either close in further or wait for the player to charge them, before proceeding to sprint forward and attempt a quick stomp or claw punch, before returning to a normal attack pattern. Fireball projectile speed should be slowed just by a little, to give the player a better fighting chance. If surrounded by foot soldiers while approaching the player, Khnums could swipe up a nearby underling and use it as a makeshift projectile against Sam, which can only be avoided like a large Lava Golem's projectile (immediately moving in the opposite direction after the Khnum has launched it). If it were a regular foot soldier, it would die upon impact with Sam or the ground. If it were a Kamikaze, it would obviously explode under either circumstance. I'd also make them less compulsive to stop and slowly tear down a column or pillar, these enemies are supposed to be fierce. They ought to simply smash the pillars with the swing of an arm while moving in Sam's direction.

Finally, I would give them an additional stun animation: In Single-player, should Sam use the Mutilator against a Khnum, after about 75% charge time, the Khnum would be brought to its knees, leaving it vulnerable to attack for a small amount of time, before rising back up to chase the player again.

Given these new strengths and weaknesses, I would increase the amount of Khnums in the game, but not to an excessive degree. Just enough to make battles more interesting, to encourage the player to adapt in a situation where Khnums are mixed with different kinds of foes.

Witch-Bride of Achriman - Replace the choking attack with two varying attacks: If an environment has destructible architecture, Witch-Brides should be able to telekinetically throw a varying amount of objects towards Sam (typically, one object at a time), where each piece of debris can be destroyed easily with your weapons. The second attack is a mass spell-summoning, although these projectiles themselves would be indestructible, they would not home in towards the player.

Ugh-Zan IV - The final boss fight could be enhanced by initiating a "Phase 2" battle, much akin to Solais' Serious Sam 3: Extended mod. Only, during phase 2, I would rid of all pre-existing enemies and disable the infinitely respawning ones. On a personal level, infinitely respawning enemies really feels like a fake difficulty spike.

Weapons

Side note: introductions of specific weapons would probably be re-evaluated, and most ammo types that are presently uncommon would be strategically increased.

Melee Attacks - While performing a melee attack, Sam should gain temporary invulnerability, and a remaining boost of invincibility after finishing the attack if it's of a particularly lengthy nature. So, for example, if it were an attack against a horde of rocketeers or cloned soldiers, the invincibility would not last long enough to be abused. If it were a melee finish against a Gnaar or a Kleer, there would be about .5 to 1 second of invincibility afterwards. Against a Scrapjack, about 3 seconds of invulnerability upon finishing.

New melee attacks:
Bomber: Sam simply kicks the bomber away, causing one of its bombs to discharge when he lands on the ground, instantly killing it and damaging everyone around him.
Harpy: Sam grabs it by the throat and tears the "mask" off, before proceeding to punch it in the face, with enough force to knock it dead.

Sirian Bracelet - I would increase the amount of targets you could wrangle, including up to two large enemies simultaneously. Charge times may remain the same.

Sledgehammer - Increase the hitbox of the Sledge's attack very slightly. As for the spin-attack... I dunno, maybe by initiating it, the game forces you into third-person mode, and Sam screams incoherently while swinging? Otherwise, it hardly serves a purpose, and I don't know what to do with it.

SOP38 - Give the weapon a small damage increase, and a 12-shot magazine. Enable auto-fire.

12 Gauge - Increase the fire rate by about .5 seconds, and decrease the reload time by 1 second. Enable auto-fire.

Double Barrel - Increase the fire rate by .5 seconds, and give it two additional pellets for potential one-shot kills against minor biomechs. Enable auto-fire.

AS24 Devastator - Change the drum-capacity from 20 shots to 10, making it less of what feels like a direct upgrade from the Rocket Launcher.

RAPTOR Sniper Rifle - In order to maintain its status as a secret weapon, tougher opponents would be more vulnerable to Sniper Rifle bullets:
Adult Arachnoid: dies in 2 shots instead of 5.
Major Biomechanoid: dies in 4 shots instead of 5.
Witch-Bride: dies in 2 shots instead of 3.
Technopolyp: dies in 4 shots instead of none.
Khnum: dies in 6 shots instead of none.

Naturally, this would make this weapon stupidly broken in Jewel of the Nile. But I'm sure that could be easily rectified by decreasing the ammo pickups in that pack.

Since I'm talking about the main game, however, I would add a couple of more secret sniper rifles/sniper ammo caches here and there.

XL2 Lasergun - Similarly, being a secret weapon only, I would merely add a couple of more lasergun/cell ammo caches in throughout the game.

Setting

I actually don't really mind the setting.

Battles

Generally, when it comes to enemy placement, Sam 3 did not exercise the use of its resources exceptionally, what with some levels just throwing hordes of a single type rather than mixing and matching. With all of my ideas listed above, there would be a large number of things I would be itching to experiment with, but rather than make this post needlessly lengthier, I'll just list some combinations I had in mind:

Khnums and Foot Soldiers - Kamikazes, Rocketeers, and Firecrackers attack while a Khnum lumbers forward and starts tossing nearby Kamikazes in your direction.

Kamikazes and Gnaars - A dangerous proposal, but puts the players ability to prioritize targets at an intense high.

__________________

So, those are all of my idea. There's probably a lot of balancing problems to be found, but hey, I enjoyed just getting these ideas out there. How would you go about changing things?
__________________
I am the Eggman.

Last edited by Sacorguy79; 11-11-2016 at 10:24 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2016, 10:23 PM   #2   Add To Ignore List  
ideas but no skills
 
PikaCommando's Avatar
 
Seriously! Archivist/Slave
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: In My Crawl, Crawling
 
PikaCommando is offline
Default Re: How would you design the game?

I love my sea of headless men with purple shirts.

I'd keep the game as it is but place more Minigun, Devostator, and Cannon ammo throughout the game (or combine Minigun ammo with AR ammo), remove the need for flashlights by giving underground levels proper lighting (or just removing underground levels), remove the Space Monkey and Clone Troopers, give the Witch-Bride her SamVR attack, change Arachnoids' and Technopolips' attacks to projectile bullets, and make explosives-only enemies damageable by all weapons.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-11-2016, 10:42 PM   #3   Add To Ignore List  
I AM YOUR REDEEMER
 
Jetroid's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2006
Location: UK
 
Jetroid is offline
Default Re: How would you design the game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PikaCommando View Post
I love my sea of headless men with purple shirts.
__________________

Wow you failed so much in Life, that you need such things as fun. - Gnaarwarian
Last hax0red by Jetroid; 01-01-1970 at 12:00 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 03:40 AM   #4   Add To Ignore List  
Idiot
 
Ziemniak's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2016
Location: Poland
 
Ziemniak is offline
Default Re: How would you design the game?

I'd remove clone soldiers, tomb levels and space monkeys and make technopolips shoot rockets.
(BTW, what's Witch-Bride's attack in VR? I didn't watch too much of gameplay videos.)
I'd also give the assault rifle a bit more "oomph", because I love that weapon and do that to pretty much all other weapons that felt weak.

Also, Sorry for a little off topic, but I just really want to say something and I don't want to make a thread that could be possibly pointless.

I was looking through the files of SS3 I found some "mace" weapon based on what the folder said? I don't remember. I'm not sure if anyone else has found it, but it only had a sounds folder AFAIK. It sounded like a sledgehammer replacement or something.
__________________
GET OUT OF HERE STALKER
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 04:06 AM   #5   Add To Ignore List  
ideas but no skills
 
PikaCommando's Avatar
 
Seriously! Archivist/Slave
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: In My Crawl, Crawling
 
PikaCommando is offline
Default Re: How would you design the game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziemniak View Post
(BTW, what's Witch-Bride's attack in VR? I didn't watch too much of gameplay videos.)
She summons four green balls at her side and throws each at you sequentially.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 04:24 AM   #6   Add To Ignore List  
Khnum
 
Serious Sam(BG)'s Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Bulgaria
 
Serious Sam(BG) is offline
Default Re: How would you design the game?

Well...
- I'll name the levels, based on their locations;
- Map-styled loading screen;
- I'll put more traps and jump & run elements in the tombs;
- In Karnak and Luxor would reuse some level layouts from FE, but they won't dominate the level at all, more like comeo. For example - column yard from Luxor, or remains of the hall of the rising obelisk;
- Tomb parts are designed too repetitively. First, we need to separate it in own levels; Second - combine it with different jump&run elements.
- Put all missing oldies back in the action - beheaded bombers and firecrackers, marsh-hoppers, etc;
- Instead of two battles with the warship, I'll add three swarm-boss battles: the first at the end of "Under the Iron Cloud" - swarm of marsh-hopper; second one - maybe in the Gathering of the Gods - swarm of antaresian spiders, inside the temple, crawling through all the walls, and the third - "Lost temples of Nubia", inside of temple ruins, forming an arena, where you can jump in from somewhere high, and then unlocks when you deal with all the enemies - here you must deal with marsh-hoppers and spiders at the same time;
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 06:15 AM   #7   Add To Ignore List  
Goodbye Moonmen
 
Discy's Avatar
 
Seriously! Khnum
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: The Netherlands
 
Discy is offline
Default Re: How would you design the game?

Oh man, this is turning into a "we can do it better" place. I've never been disappointed in a Serious Sam game. As long as Croteam learns from the strengths and weaknesses of previous games (which they seem to do) I trust this will be the best Serious Sam yet.

I do wish for big, colorful and distinct levels. The levels of Sam3 sorta blended into each other for me in the middle, and Sam2 did a much better job at creating memorable locations despite having some weak design. Enemy immunity to certain weapons to me is a huge no-no in a frantic shooter, just like taking away player movement/ability to defend oneself.
__________________
"Is there any better Gerüstbaufirmenvorarbeiterschlüsselanhängerfarbenwasserlöslichkeitskontrollchemiker than discy? No!" -Shrinker
[22:30] Fiendian: Discy, Finzy and Louva shall merge into a superentity known as the Lickyfonz.
"Can we just move Discy's posts to the HOF automatically already? :P" -Jetty


Ir-Kalla: Serious Sam Classic map pack in development (Ir-Kalla: Egypt Demo)
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 09:36 AM   #8   Add To Ignore List  
Khnum
 
Artman40's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2002
Location: House in suburbs
 
Artman40 is offline
Default Re: How would you design the game?

I would remove reloading. Or actually replace it with anti-reloading. Some sort of charge that you could release after firing a lot of bullets.
__________________
◉⏝◉
█▓▒░▒▓█▓▒░▒▓█▓▒░▒▓█
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 10:12 AM   #9   Add To Ignore List  
Idiot
 
Ziemniak's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2016
Location: Poland
 
Ziemniak is offline
Default Re: How would you design the game?

How about an option in the menu?
__________________
GET OUT OF HERE STALKER
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 11:23 AM   #10   Add To Ignore List  
Albino Cyclops
 
Sacorguy79's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2011
Location: Canada
 
Sacorguy79 is offline
Default Re: How would you design the game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Discy View Post
Oh man, this is turning into a "we can do it better" place. I've never been disappointed in a Serious Sam game. As long as Croteam learns from the strengths and weaknesses of previous games (which they seem to do) I trust this will be the best Serious Sam yet.
To be honest, that wasn't the impression I was going for, but I can see why my beginning statements indicated that. Oops.

My thought process on the idea is "if there were no deadlines or limitations to what you could design, how would you do it?", it was never meant to piss on the developers.
__________________
I am the Eggman.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2016, 12:56 PM   #11   Add To Ignore List  
Goodbye Moonmen
 
Discy's Avatar
 
Seriously! Khnum
Joined: Jul 2003
Location: The Netherlands
 
Discy is offline
Default Re: How would you design the game?

Well that makes more sense. I always thought Gears of War did reloading right: You can either press reload and wait it out like a standard FPS, or use the risk/reward button prompt to either reload your weapon faster, reload faster and do additional damage for a bit or mess it up and reloading takes a bit longer.
__________________
"Is there any better Gerüstbaufirmenvorarbeiterschlüsselanhängerfarbenwasserlöslichkeitskontrollchemiker than discy? No!" -Shrinker
[22:30] Fiendian: Discy, Finzy and Louva shall merge into a superentity known as the Lickyfonz.
"Can we just move Discy's posts to the HOF automatically already? :P" -Jetty


Ir-Kalla: Serious Sam Classic map pack in development (Ir-Kalla: Egypt Demo)
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2016, 12:09 PM   #12   Add To Ignore List  
Wake Up
 
FreekNik's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2011
Location: Russia
 
FreekNik is offline
Default Re: How would you design the game?

It's a bit difficult for me to go into design side of the game when it comes to actual gameplay or level-design without turning the whole point to "what was bad in SS3 and how they could've fixed it". But I would certainly make some changes and additions to the story.

First of all it comes to the characters — I'd try to make them more memorable and interesting through their relationships with Sam, give them a bit more background and certainly not killing half of them in the first half of the game as it feels very, very cheap. Adding some snippets of information into Netricsa about Sam and his friends would be one of the ways to give more background to the characters without breaking the pace, and having more cut-scenes and brief talks between Sam and other guys would be nice as well. Once again, NPC's could be used in a similar way to SS2: for example, a helicopter pilot (Garrett, Wilson or Hellfire) could help you on the battlefield by throwing off supplies and ammo before some battles e.t.c..

Developing the world is another important narrative task, which can be improved by so called "environmental stories", when storywriter must cooperate with artists and designers to create interesting little scenes that could contain some unspoken backstory of the places and scenes that player visit in the game. Just minor details, like a bulletin board containing notes and photos of Cairo refugees, dead bodies of EDF soldiers on the barricades, small objects and stuff left by people in their houses or streets, like kids toys or newspapers or audiomessages and tapes containing some songs. Anything like that. Some distinctive graffities - not those boring arabian notes but actual paintings - would be nice as well.

Another important change would be Sam himself, his attitude and backstory. What I didn't like about SS3 is how they almost retconned his role of a person who was chosen to travel to the past, being one of the most famous and strongest veterans of this war. I understand how they tried to make him look strong and serious than other people by his actions - he proved himself by surviving through the battles, but still, I'd left some cues and tips about him being somewhat special person, hence there are multiple interesting ways to do that imho. One of the ways I had in my mind for some years (and planned to incude into my fiction story, but... eh) could be referring to Sam and his past in one of the dialogs between him and Rodriguez/Quinn, uncovering that he was actually among the first candidates for Charlie Team but got rejected in the end because of some unexplained or vague reasons. May be even due to his past (Surveyor *wink*). Another way to make Sam or, in our case, the player feel special about the protag. is to have some heavy inspirational scene. This is where I come to the last major change I'd make in SS3: change the ending.

As I mentioned before, I wouldn't kill some characters early in the game. I'd most likely keep Rodriguez alive for some time, may be up until the Lost Temples of Nubia. I'd swap Hellfire death scene with Quinn, making Hellfire escape the battle by Quinn's order to help Sam. First of all, I think it would be better to leave some cues to Sam and Hellfire having a small and brief "romantic pause" when preparing to leave their time. Secondary, I'd give Hellfire another task - for example, she should protect or prepare the Time Lock for the travel while Sam is battling with Ugh-Zan IV. Finally, I'd still kill her (almost) to increase the already sad emotional tension of the ending, while at the same time once again bring some inspirational moment and let the player feel this special nature of Sam and importance of his task. Hellfire is badly wounded, all covered in blood. She won't last long, and they both understand it, yet Sam still desperatly tries to do something. Yet there's no time at all, new Mental troops are on their way to Time Lock, and Mental starts his final "mooning" plan. Sam can't choose what he should do - jump into the portal or try to save the girl. In this very difficult moment Hellfire calms him down by saying how special he is and always were. She tells him there's only one thing left to do and value, and it's time. "It's your time, Sam. It has come. Find Mental and kick his ass. And remember, that all of us will always believe in you, being either in heaven or hell." (this is also a ref to "cursed become the martyrs" in the final song). And that's when Sam finds a courage and runs into the portal with his "See ya in 3000BC, Mental..." speech. I know it's probably cringy or unnecessary dramatic, but I think it'd be an even more emotional and powerful ending, kinda akin to SW2013, and I would certainly do it if I had a chance to design SS3.

That's it for now.
__________________
DeviantArt | Abandoned Blog
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-22-2016, 12:48 PM   #13   Add To Ignore List  
ideas but no skills
 
PikaCommando's Avatar
 
Seriously! Archivist/Slave
Joined: Mar 2013
Location: In My Crawl, Crawling
 
PikaCommando is offline
Default Re: How would you design the game?

While I agree that more effort could be put into world-building, I disagree that Sam should be special.

I'm actually sort of glad they retconned him to be a (somewhat?) regular joe in SS3 because he earned the right to wear his favorite outfit into combat situations by having proven that kevlar makes no difference for him instead of being a super soldier or a chosen one or having descended from some kind of special ancestry. He's a guy who made a big mistake and has more than redeemed himself but people still underestimate him and think he was just lucky (thus not being a part of Charlie Team) and when he finally goes to Sirius and kill Mental, no one will know of the sacrifices he did. But he still does it anyway because that's what heroes do.

And yes, I agree that Rodriguez should've stayed alive longer. One of my favorite things about SS3 is how it all looks just like a standard military operation (the twist is that they're against Mental, which is why it's cool), but the only place to talk about Sam's past is for Rodriguez to make witty comments to Sam or else it'll just be out of place. Also, I think killing off Hellfire in Last Man on Earth is a good choice. Sam always puts mission first because he knows that redeeming himself by killing Mental is worth it for all the lives he couldn't save.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Web Design sean123 Off Topic Forum 52 07-02-2002 06:07 PM
Web Design sean123 Off Topic Forum 4 04-08-2002 04:28 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:31 PM.