Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

[gedamial]

I've just won a duel against a friend of mine on the map "The Lost Tomb" where the only item to time is the ARMOR +200

I was taking all the Armors as soon as they spawned, and he (who is almost as experienced as me) lost because of my timing skill.

So, you see.

Who has won? The better one.
And who is the better one?

He who knows well the maps, weapons and is able to time!

Adding spawn timers will break this magic.

[Ryason55]

I don't agree with adding spawn timers either, but moreso for aesthetic reasons; I really don't think floating numbers fit with Serious Sam. If anything like this is implemented, it should be through something more subtle. Say, show a ghost of the item, and have it pulsate with increasing levels of frequency (slow, medium, fast) based on how much time before the item spawns again.

[gedamial]

Originally Posted by Ryason55

Say, show a ghost of the item, and have it pulsate with increasing levels of frequency (slow, medium, fast) based on how much time before the item spawns again.

Even though I don't like it, but it's always better than the clock

[Solais]

That can work. It's very similar to how Duke3D did it, which had a spinning nuke symbol, that changed color and spun faster and faster until the item spawned.

[MasterEvilAce]

Originally Posted by gedamial

I've just won a duel against a friend of mine on the map "The Lost Tomb" where the only item to time is the ARMOR +200

I was taking all the Armors as soon as they spawned, and he (who is almost as experienced as me) lost because of my timing skill.

So, you see.

Who has won? The better one.
And who is the better one?

He who knows well the maps, weapons and is able to time!

Adding spawn timers will break this magic.

That's not competitive though. IMO you're playing like a bitch. The player that has all the health and ammo is typically going to win more often than not, unless they get outplayed. When you KNOW when stuff spawns, because you took it, that gives you double advantage, like I said earlier.. but also hides information from your opponent, putting them at a huge disadvantage.

IMO that's really, really bad design, and is in my opinion COUNTER-COMPETITIVE. Starving/bleeding someone out, with a very low chance to come back into the game is not competitive at all.
I play a LOT of League of Legends, it's a MOBA that has emphasis on PVP, but also many PVE elements. There are neutral jungle camps that you can take that give you individual/team buffs. Good players/teams control these buffs, like you mentioned.

In the last year, League implemented jungle timers... when you go to investigate a buff, you see if it's either dead or alive. If it's dead, you get a timer when it respawns -so you can contest it when it spawns.-
For the IMPORTANT objectives like DRAGON and BARON, they give huge buffs and are located in center, between both bases. When a team takes these, BOTH teams get a timer for when it respawns, regardless if you saw them killed or not.. because these are so important, one team controlling 100% of them when they spawn, and the other team not knowing when they spawn, completely would shutout one team's chance of winning.. because they had no idea when it was respawning, or if it had been killed... if you went to go check you could potentially just be ambushed and killed.

When they added timers, all the pro players were pissed about timing and all of that. But in the grand scheme of things it made the whole game MUCH better. The games are 10x more fun to SPECTATE... games are no longer huge stomps because of one team controlling 100% of objectives, etc.

The game became -much more competitive- at all levels of play, because it enabled more avenues for teamwork.

If you truly are a better player, you shouldn't need +100HP bonus at every single encounter. If you think you're a better player because your character is statistically better, then I hate to break it to you, but... you're not.

Originally Posted by Solais

That can work. It's very similar to how Duke3D did it, which had a spinning nuke symbol, that changed color and spun faster and faster until the item spawned.

I played a -lot- of Duke3D back in the day, and this is a pretty good system. It shows where a spawn point is, but not what the item is. It gives relative spawn timers, but not exact. You can know when something was taken recently, but not exactly when. And you won't know exactly when it comes back up, but you get an indicator when it's spawning SOON.

Personally, that's the system I'd go with.

[Solais]

I like it. Dunno if it should be a spinning Serious Bomb icon, since its similarity with the Serious Damage item, but we'll probably prototype what works best.

[gedamial]

MasterEvilAce, in my opinion, you never played Serious Sam HD Versus.
That's the kind of mentality that destroys a so amazing competitive Arena FPS game like Serious Sam.

Originally Posted by MasterEvilAce

That's not competitive though. IMO you're playing like a bitch. The player that has all the health and ammo is typically going to win more often than not, unless they get outplayed.

In case you didn't know, even though you are 200-200, a single shotgun shot can take you off half armor
In case you didn't know, Serious Sam is not like Quake, where if you pick the Armor you have MUCH MORE probabilities to kill the opponent.

Originally Posted by MasterEvilAce

When you KNOW when stuff spawns, because you took it, that gives you double advantage, like I said earlier.. but also hides information from your opponent, putting them at a huge disadvantage.

NO NO NO

First of all when the opponent picks the item you hear the sound of the item when it's picked
Second, if you really want to pickup the item BEFORE your opponent... learn how to play and time it. That requires ability!

Originally Posted by MasterEvilAce

I play a LOT of League of Legends, it's a MOBA that has emphasis on PVP, but also many PVE elements.
When they added timers, all the pro players were pissed about timing and all of that. But in the grand scheme of things it made the whole game MUCH better. The games are 10x more fun to SPECTATE...

You're comparing two genres TOTALLY DIFFERENT!
Who cares of spectators? I don't know if you understand but Serious Sam / Arena FPS are FAST games, and most of the time all vs all. Not like LoL

[MasterEvilAce]

No, I didn't play much SSersus.. but the core gameplay concept isn't vastly different from any other oldschool shooter. You're exaggerating a lot.

I played a ton of UT and Quake back in the day, among other things.
I'm comparing your idea of "competitive" with a real scenario that played out in League. They added timers for buffs. Pretty much the same thing you're talking about. They seriously made the game more competitive and prevented one-sided stomps. It's way more fun to PLAY.. and way more fun to WATCH.

You only hear sounds of items if you're in proximity. And if there are any global sounds for powerups, then you can time them anyways which is a moot point.

Your skills as a player should based on reaction time and thinking on the fly. Your skills shouldn't be based on getting ridiculous advantages based on bad game design.

Counter-Strike is the most popular shooter, and most competitive.. and has been for a LONG time. This is also because it's great for spectators. You will never have a super popular game if only the players playing can have a good time "I wish others could see how great I am."

I respect your opinions, but I do believe they come from a elitist / ego-centric playstyle, and make it harder for people to enjoy playing with you. If you want to build a community, you have to design a great game that's simple to pickup and play, where the complexities come from decision making and knowledge of the levels and weapons.. and not from "outplaying" someone that has no idea what is going on.

[gedamial]

Originally Posted by MasterEvilAce

Your skills as a player should based on reaction time and thinking on the fly. Your skills shouldn't be based on getting ridiculous advantages based on bad game design.

Those are advantages anyone can have, you just need to practice and understand the mechanism.

Originally Posted by MasterEvilAce

Counter-Strike is the most popular shooter, and most competitive.. and has been for a LONG time. This is also because it's great for spectators. You will never have a super popular game if only the players playing can have a good time "I wish others could see how great I am."

That's totally a personal opinion.
When we organize tournaments on Serious Sam there are servers FULL of spectators.
Because we really enjoy playing and being watched while playing.
That's very fun.

Originally Posted by MasterEvilAce

I respect your opinions, but I do believe they come from a elitist / ego-centric playstyle, and make it harder for people to enjoy playing with you.

You can't defeat me if I'm far more experienced that you. If I know spawn points, maps, weapon points, TIMING and such.

If you wanna defeat me, learn how to play

That's the right spirit!!!

[Joe Flamingo]

Just base the Versus mode of the next Serious Sam game on these two mods, and all will be ok: (links deleted because of new user's restriction)

The Ultimate Versus (Balancement Mod)
steamcommunity. com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=620146054

The Ultimate Versus - CTF Map Pack
steamcommunity. com/workshop/filedetails/?id=620100939


Believe me because I knew what I did very well.
All other stuff is not necessary.

Regards,
Joe Flamingo

[gedamial]

Originally Posted by Joe Flamingo

Just base the Versus mode of the next Serious Sam game on these two mods, and all will be ok: (links deleted because of new user's restriction)

The Ultimate Versus (Balancement Mod)
steamcommunity. com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=620146054

The Ultimate Versus - CTF Map Pack
steamcommunity. com/workshop/filedetails/?id=620100939


Believe me because I knew what I did very well.
All other stuff is not necessary.

Regards,
Joe Flamingo

Hello Joe, old friend!

I must admit your MODs are very well done.
We've been using those for several occasions, especially for tournaments!

For sure you are one of them who exactly knows what is a competitive and worth playing game.

[Scratch]

Wtf? If item respawn timers actually exist, they should only be visible for spectators.

Edit: oh there's another page. Oh well.

[jasser]

Oh, I so saw this coming when this thread was made. Some arguing for making the game more friendly towards new players and a self-proclaimed "pro" arguing about how it will ruin everything.

Yes, timing matters. However, timing is a hell of a lot more than spawn timers of items. As I said in my earlier post, fixed spawn timers usually only serve to make the difference between stronger and weaker players even bigger, resulting in pummeling.

As for Gedamial's example of him pummeling his friend, I think it serves more of an example of how poor a game mechanic it actually is to have fixed timers, than how "competitive" it is. A minor difference in skill, which would usually result in a difficult to predict outcome of the match, is amplified way out of proportion, making one player dominant. And in fact, two players of equal skill would run into the same issue - the first one that lucked out with the armor could literally dominate the entire match as a result by continually getting an endurance boost relative to his opponent.

I'd say that any game design where the first 30 seconds of a match decide the outcome in the vast majority of matches is unfit for purpose.

As MEA said, you can make a game a lot more competitive by exposing the game changing factors to everyone (such as spawn time of power ups). However, a lot of it is also up to the map design. Strong weapons and power ups should always be placed in or near areas of high traffic and therefore high risk.

I've played every game mode in Quake and UT with everything from the most casual players to semi-professional players. And even when you take out all the things that "pro" players are so fond of to show their dominance of others (e.g. spawn timers, power ups, weapon difference, etc.), the better players still end up on top. They end up on top because they understand the weapons, the maps and their opponents. They know what weapons to use in which situations and how to use them for both offense and defense, they know how to move through the maps and they are good at predicting the movement, strategy and actions of their opponents.

None of these things have ANYTHING to do with spawn timers, denial of power-ups and weapons or anything like it. However, by removing all those factors that serve to amplify the skill difference, you get down to the core of the actual fighting skills of players. When everyone is on equal footing, without game mechanics that put one player or team in completely control of the match, you get a much more unpredictable outcome - and thus a game that's more fun to play and watch.

I don't understand the whining about the serious damage either. It's supposed to be a power strike and a game changer. It's supposed to blow you the hell away - why on earth would you nerf it? It makes not sense for a FFA DM match to nerf it. If you truly want "competitive" play, then it's not FFA (it's either 1v1 or TDM) and there should simply be an option to turn off power-ups and that could be voluntarily applied by those seeking a tournament style competitive environment.

And for that matter, 1v1 and TDM (or any other team based modes, e.g. CTF) are two very different things. You'd find it very hard to have the exact same gameplay mechanics in both and still have both be suitable for competitive play. 1v1s in FPS games have always been almost exclusively about "exhausting" your opponent by area-control and item-denial. Team based modes on the other hand have mostly been focused on other areas of gameplay. There's a reason why you don't see a lot of 1v1 FPS competitions in eSports - they're simply not fun to watch and too often end up being completely predictable after the first kill. They do, however, still exist at events because the participating players keep demanding them.

[PikaCommando]

Usually pro players try to keep the Luck factor down to a minimum, because a truly skilled player would know how to turn the tides.


Also QuakeCon matches are pretty fun to watch. If you want boredom, go for competitive Pokemon

[Solais]

The Ultimate Versus mods are on the right track, at least when it comes to weapon balance, though I'd do a few changes differently. However, I do believe there should be more than weapon balance, but that's the first thing for sure.

I do want to ask y'all: What do you think, what makes/could make/would make Versus fun? And I'm not only talking about mechanics, but things that are more casual; like interestingly different than norm maps, gamemodes, etc. Really, any general idea about the versus mode is welcome!

[PikaCommando]

Generally, I dislike Versus because it's way too different from Quake and UT. Might have something to do with my ping being 400 every time. But otherwise, that might be a good thing because it means SS's Versus is original.


I say the thing that makes it most different from Quake 3/UT would be the size of the maps. Enemies always felt like they're as small as the crosshair at range. While I can't really tell due to the size of the maps, but the perception of speed can be messed up too. Sometimes it feels like I'm moving too slow, while enemies feel like they're moving too fast.

The weapons for the most part are generic FPS fare with the exception of the Flamethrower and Cannon. There's no drawbacks to sniping in SS unless one counts the reduced fov when zooming in. So I guess that's what makes sniping fun in SS. Also, bullet-based weapons are always on-point, so they're always deadly and is what makes them unique compared to Quake 3. Fact: Origins had the most weapon diversity in all of SS

Versus in SS so far has no worthwhile modes to talk about. All the good ones like Beast Hunt are in Co-Op . As usual, the best way to spice things up is with the Assault mode (missions) from UT. Also, maybe the addition of Freeze Tag would be nice (anything that is won with points instead of kills, except CTF (which might need a Grappling Hook like in Quake's Threewave CTF) and KOTH). A Rocket Arena/Counter-Strike type mode would work as well. Or they can do what Enemy Territory/Team Fortress 2 did and have a Payload-type gamemode where you have to deliver an objective/vehicle to the enemy's base. Oh, and for a truly fun and casual mode: Football.

The best thing that would catch everyone's attention is player customization. Currently, all the player models are all so generic and boring despite being cowboys and boxers and dancers and shit because of having only one animation set and 2 sets of sounds for different genders. Something that would make it more personal to the players would be nice, or just having different voice actors for different characters. ALSO, TAUNTS


And yes, we need bots.



By the way, a bit off-topic but: Those who says "git gud" needs to be washed in volcanic fire. Strong players get nothing from beating weak players (aside from the sick satisfaction of completely crushing someone, possibly in compensation for another aspect in life) and weak players will learn nothing from being completely crushed by strong players. Observing others doesn't mean much if you couldn't put it into practice. The only way for someone to get stronger is to play against someone (or some bot) equal to his skill level, so he has enough chance to experience a fair fight and know what works; and what doesn't.

[Artificial]

Look, why don't we just have spawn timers be a serverside setting? Simple as that. Since SS games never had a spawn timer, the default setting would be it being switched off.

Variety in options is always good. Whenever possible, do not make players'/server creator's decisions for them. Developers, sady, are starting to make this mistake more and more these days, which leads to a lack of replay value, which leads to players not sticking with the game.

[Joe Flamingo]

I do want to ask y'all: What do you think, what makes/could make/would make Versus fun? And I'm not only talking about mechanics, but things that are more casual; like interestingly different than norm maps, gamemodes, etc. Really, any general idea about the versus mode is welcome!

Happy Easter Everybody.

I really think that the raw gameplay of the Versus Mode (weapons, movement, mechanics) SHOULD remain the same in every gamemode, for avoiding confusion throughout different games and levels.
Too many gamestyles just divide community and make so much confusion!

For example on UT3 we have Vehicles modes, and old-style modes, and community split into two different communities, the ones for the Vehicles and team game modes, and the ones that played only on old-style game modes.

If you wanna keep the community united you should never make more than one gameplay style.

Usually there are 3 kinds of gamemodes: the CTF and Team DM (more funny), the pure Deathmatch (which is some kind of fun and competitive at the same time) and the Old classic Duel mode (one versus one, should be competitive or it will never be played).

If you cannot make differences in gameplay between different gamemods for the problems i showed above, you can work on MAPS.
Same rules, different settings.
Map design is so important to differentiate a funny CTF from a wide and complex DM map or a competitive well-balanced 1on1 map.

I think you should ask some good people (obviously top level players) because they really know how to make gameplay balanced, and at the same time how to build your maps for every gamemode.

[Gnaarwarian]

Originally Posted by PikaCommando

And yes, we need bots.

Quake 3 & UT are old games with dusty old game ideas. That was 17 years ago.

Last UT with bots is from 2007.

I think develoers gives up idea of Bots between 2004-2008, with a few exceptions.

Another thing is how many here does not realized how outdated Sound system of SE1 is/was.

[Targ3t]

I really enjoyed reading same things repeated for over 40 posts. Just drop your suggestions and leave, rather than pointlessly debating over different opinions.

Extra points for Discy who already guessed what was going to happen.

[God Of Gaming]

Originally Posted by PikaCommando

Also, bullet-based weapons are always on-point, so they're always deadly and is what makes them unique compared to Quake 3.

BTW, SS Classic's Minigun is not accurate in versus, it has some spread to it, which I think is not such a bad idea, actually it might have been better if it was like that in single player too.

Originally Posted by Gnaarwarian

Another thing is how many here does not realized how outdated Sound system of SE1 is/was.

What's wrong with it? Its DirectSound3D is much better than the XAudio2 which SS:HD and SS3 use by default, and about equal to OpenAL which you can choose in them with some .ini tweaking... A true upgrade imo would be to switch to OpenAL Soft, which allows for HRTF, and maybe something like iSound on top for more realistic sound propagation than EAX.

[gedamial]

Originally Posted by Solais

I do want to ask y'all: What do you think, what makes/could make/would make Versus fun? And I'm not only talking about mechanics, but things that are more casual; like interestingly different than norm maps, gamemodes, etc. Really, any general idea about the versus mode is welcome!

Let's start saying that when we talk about how fun the Versus is, you should always take into account SSHD's versus.

Other than the amazing super reactive mechanics/movements, another thing that I love is the variety of the maps.

Each map has its own mechanism to learn in order to over power the opponents.
There are maps used competitively like Fortress, Hole, Medieval Rage, The Lost Tomb and other ones used for casual deathmatches like Yodeller.

It may seem stupid, but I find the Double Shotgun incredibly fun sometimes.
It happens that one of the enemies has low health and you shoot him with the double shotgun at mid-low range. After that, the player EXPLODES into pieces and blood and the sound of the shot mixed with the explosion of the body is soooo satisfying!!!

Timestamps? Ok! Look at these pieces of video

1. https://youtu.be/yjJvbTFebnQ?t=5m12s
2. https://youtu.be/yjJvbTFebnQ?t=5m50s
3. https://youtu.be/yjJvbTFebnQ?t=6m52s
4. https://youtu.be/yjJvbTFebnQ?t=7m8s
5. https://youtu.be/yjJvbTFebnQ?t=7m54s
6. https://youtu.be/yjJvbTFebnQ?t=10m8s

About Game Modes... well to be honest I only play Deathmatch, Duel and rarely Team Deathmatch.

I don't like too much games modes. The classic ones are perfect for me.

Another great think that SSHD Versus has is that Rockets and Grenades are destructible when they impact with the Laser. It makes the player create a new tactic in some situations and escape from critical ones.

[jasser]

Originally Posted by PikaCommando

Usually pro players try to keep the Luck factor down to a minimum, because a truly skilled player would know how to turn the tides.

Well, to a large extent I agree with you. However, there are simply situations that you can not turn around regardless of your own skill level. If we stick to duels (1v1), if a map is poorly designed, it literally puts the player with the first kill completely in charge of every pickup in the map. This leaves the player who started with a death with nothing to fight with, and the player who started with a kill with nothing to fear, as they have higher endurance and firepower. Even pro players stay away from maps that allow complete control/dominance. The balance really lies in designing the maps around the game mode and game mechanics.

Originally Posted by Joe Flamingo

I really think that the raw gameplay of the Versus Mode (weapons, movement, mechanics) SHOULD remain the same in every gamemode, for avoiding confusion throughout different games and levels.
Too many gamestyles just divide community and make so much confusion!

For example on UT3 we have Vehicles modes, and old-style modes, and community split into two different communities, the ones for the Vehicles and team game modes, and the ones that played only on old-style game modes.

If you wanna keep the community united you should never make more than one gameplay style.

And the UT3 community "split" is a problem why? The different game modes appeal to different players and that's the way it's always been. Hell, UT had a community split based on whether the game mode (e.g. CTF) was played 3v3 or 5v5. There were still plenty of people around for both. If you ask me, it's damn near impossible to offer more than one game mode and not have the community be split.

Originally Posted by Joe Flamingo

Map design is so important to differentiate a funny CTF from a wide and complex DM map or a competitive well-balanced 1on1 map.

I so agree with this. Map design is key to making the game fun and competitive. And even within the same game mode, the map design can be the difference between a game/match that is fun, competitive or both. Map design needs to be built to support the game mode and game mechanics and to ensure balance.

Originally Posted by Gnaarwarian

Quake 3 & UT are old games with dusty old game ideas. That was 17 years ago.

Last UT with bots is from 2007.

I think develoers gives up idea of Bots between 2004-2008, with a few exceptions.

Actually, the new UT has largely the same game modes as the old ones and bots have been present in it from the get go. Many of the game modes and concepts from those "old" games still live today as part of the gameplay of new games.

[Serious Sam(BG)]

LOL, Zeb's videos He is the perfect example for unstable personality. You enter a match, where Zeb dominates > kill Zeb > Zeb starting a vote to kick you. Many of the italians in HD are like him, unfortunately.

[Scratch]

Single handedly managed to ruin the HD versus community for sure.. but that's not the point of this thread.

[gedamial]

Originally Posted by Serious Sam(BG)

LOL, Zeb's videos He is the perfect example for unstable personality. You enter a match, where Zeb dominates > kill Zeb > Zeb starting a vote to kick you. Many of the italians in HD are like him, unfortunately.

As Scratch intelligently said, the videos I linked had the goal to show you the things I was trying to make you understand.

Also, if you read above, I already talked about the leaks of the Votation System in Serious Sam.

And while we are at it, I'd like to see a better Chat system in the versus.
Often there's people flooding in the chatbox without any restriction.
A punishment for flooding would be required.

[Solais]

Zeb is pretty much a non-person, considering he screwed over Croteam and pretty much destroyed the SSHD versus community. Not to mention, he was supposed to be THE tester of the SS3 Versus mode, so if it's bad, it's kinda him not doing his job; considering how much have Croteam always listened to its testers. So yeah, don't expect anyone taking him, or his videos seriously.

[gedamial]

Originally Posted by Solais

Zeb is pretty much a non-person, considering he screwed over Croteam and pretty much destroyed the SSHD versus community. Not to mention, he was supposed to be THE tester of the SS3 Versus mode, so if it's bad, it's kinda him not doing his job; considering how much have Croteam always listened to its testers. So yeah, don't expect anyone taking him, or his videos seriously.

As Scratch said and as I reconfirmed, the video was to show you what I was trying to make you understand.
I took the Zeb's one because he's one of the few people who record Serious Sam matches in high quality on Youtube.

I don't accept this off topic. Think at the game, don't move your mind to such stupid things.

I linked you some clips about what you asked, I would except a reply about it.

I definitely don't care who Zeb is, what he did and what he didn't. And surely I'm not the only one here.

[Artificial]

Originally Posted by Gnaarwarian

Quake 3 & UT are old games with dusty old game ideas. That was 17 years ago.

Last UT with bots is from 2007.

I think develoers gives up idea of Bots between 2004-2008, with a few exceptions.

Another thing is how many here does not realized how outdated Sound system of SE1 is/was.

UT4 has bots. UT3 has bots. Black Ops 3 has bots, bless Treyarch for keeping them alive.

Bots add a whole bunch of replay value to a game. It gives you someone to play against if,

1. You just wanna test something.
2. You just wanna screw around.
3. You just wanna fill up your server and give people something to kill while they're waiting for actual players.
4. You don't have anyone to play with for whatever reason.
5. You don't have a reliable internet connection.
6. You don't have to put up with people's competitive whiny BS.

[jasser]

So to get back on the topic of versus. I think we all agree that the weapon balance needs to be tuned. So that far at least we're on the same page.

I think the main question that really needs to be answered is what SS versus should be. Should it just be pure 1v1 and FFA DM? Or should it be something more varied and include team modes like TDM and CTF?

And perhaps keep in mind that the more game modes exist, the less time there is to work on each of them - i.e. quality of each game mode will likely suffer.

Not that it's our decision to make, but I do want to hear what you all think SS versus should be. Now that we opened that can of worms .