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Old 10-30-2001, 04:09 PM   #1   Add To Ignore List  
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Im fighting for the Serious Sam engine being better than the quake 3 engine, anyone know where i can get some comparisons anywhere?

also, ss has better GFX than q3 dont it
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Old 10-30-2001, 04:28 PM   #2   Add To Ignore List  
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a few screen shots of the karnak demo or the old flyby demo would do well to prove your point id think ... also check www.croteam.com for their message boards on the serious engine.  Dont know where to find data on the q3 engine though.
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Old 10-30-2001, 07:56 PM   #3   Add To Ignore List  
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I think the Quake 3 engine does a better job of rendering a lot of architectural polys, and has shaders, but SS has much better lighting and culling, plus no compiling.
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Old 10-31-2001, 09:56 AM   #4   Add To Ignore List  
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Serious Pros:

*) Better visibility system. ASER beats PVS anytime culling a lot more polys.

*) Up to three userdefined passes per polygon.

*) Shaders are a lot easier to define than Q3 (ie. not text scripts).

*) Better editor (IMO)

*) Can render many more models.

*) Better model LOD (for instance different shadings for each LOD).

*) Net-implementation less sensitive to lag.

*) Support for larger maps due to efficient sectoring.


Serious Cons:

*) Very low number of world polys can be rendered at the same time.

*) Net options not as mature as q3 (spectator, client demo recording, better rcon).

*) More precise navigation (20 ticks per seconds is not enough for elite gaming).

*) Net implementation not mature. Supports a lot less players.

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Old 10-31-2001, 11:29 AM   #5   Add To Ignore List  
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wooooooooooooosh






sorry, but that went right over my head LOL
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Old 10-31-2001, 01:43 PM   #6   Add To Ignore List  
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Sorry - it went a bit quickly

Here are some explanations:

ASER [advancing sorted edge rasterizer] : The technique (developed by croteam) the Serious Engine uses to realtime determine which sectors (parts of the world) polygons are occluding. (This is actually a subset of another technique called s-buffering or span-buffering used in quake 1+2 software rendering)

PVS [Potential Visibility Set] : The technique Quake 1-3 uses to determine which parts of the world is visible from the current part you are in. All sectors contains a precalculated list of which other sectors are visible from this one.

Shaders: Shaders determine how your polygon is rendered. Reflective glass has a different shader than a wall-surface for instance.

LOD [Level-of-Detail] : By using this, you reduce the complexity (number of polygons) the farther away you get from the object. Used very much in Serious Sam.

Sectoring: In the Serious Engine, you split up your levels in smaller sectors that is usually a room, an arena or something similar.

World Polys: The Serious Engine has (as Quake) a destinction between models and brushes. Brushes defines architechture (Walls/doors/stairs) and enemies/health/players are models. World brushes are a lot slower in Serious Sam than models.



Hope that cleared up some things

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Old 10-31-2001, 01:50 PM   #7   Add To Ignore List  
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Quote:
Quote: from Naythn on 11:56 pm on Oct. 30, 2001
I think the Quake 3 engine does a better job of rendering a lot of architectural polys, and has shaders, but SS has much better lighting and culling, plus no compiling.
Hrm.. nope... the Quake engine (from Quake 1, to Half Life to Quake 3) has always been a corridor rendering game - what i mean is, it doesnt cope well with large outside areas - read some mapping tutorials for quake engine based games, it will always tell you to break up large areas with furniture and stuff - to break up the line of sight - minimizing r_speeds

Serious Sam doesnt have to worry about this - although SS seems to work less better with corridors than huge arena style areas or terrain.

Go figure! hehe
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Old 10-31-2001, 04:14 PM   #8   Add To Ignore List  
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Quote:
Quote: from MatrixMillion on 12:50 pm on Oct. 31, 2001
Quote:
Quote: from Naythn on 11:56 pm on Oct. 30, 2001
I think the Quake 3 engine does a better job of rendering a lot of architectural polys, and has shaders, but SS has much better lighting and culling, plus no compiling.
Hrm.. nope... the Quake engine (from Quake 1, to Half Life to Quake 3) has always been a corridor rendering game - what i mean is, it doesnt cope well with large outside areas - read some mapping tutorials for quake engine based games, it will always tell you to break up large areas with furniture and stuff - to break up the line of sight - minimizing r_speeds

Serious Sam doesnt have to worry about this - although SS seems to work less better with corridors than huge arena style areas or terrain.

Go figure! hehe
Then show me an example of the Serious engine handling 10,000 architectural polys with ease.  It doesn't happen, trust me.
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Old 10-31-2001, 04:58 PM   #9   Add To Ignore List  
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have u even played Serious Sam!!!! :-D
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Old 10-31-2001, 05:07 PM   #10   Add To Ignore List  
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Yes.  I barely goes over 1,000 architectural polygons at one time.
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Old 10-31-2001, 05:10 PM   #11   Add To Ignore List  
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lol. Well i have to be honest, i havent played all much of Qauke 3 - but to me the levels seem really simple. Not very intensive on the R-speeds.

But i dont care anyway - SS is the engine for me, not coz of wot it can do, but how easy it is to do it. me loves it.
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Old 10-31-2001, 08:48 PM   #12   Add To Ignore List  
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Quake 3 levels are intensive on architectural detail, but Serious Sam has far more total polygons.  If you try hard enough, you can get SS to display 100,000 polygons at one time(although it gives me a framerate of 3).
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Old 11-01-2001, 05:37 AM   #13   Add To Ignore List  
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Casual question Do terrain polys made using a displacement pic onto a worldbase count as architectural polys or what?
Like do they effect the rendering speed as adversely as theoretically architectural polys do relative to model polys?

I've just made a few test terrains on very large worldbases,
and they seem to render really well and really fast, so I'm curious if they are treated/rendered seperately differently
from how architectural brushes are rendered.

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Old 11-01-2001, 07:12 AM   #14   Add To Ignore List  
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Nope - they are treated the same.

A poly is a poly. The only difference is, because terrain is unusually detailed, light doesnt work with it well, so you have to fake shadows with shadow textures.

I love terrain, its so versatile, the amount of times ive made something from the terrain tool that wasnt really terrain. Its cool.
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Old 11-01-2001, 11:52 AM   #15   Add To Ignore List  
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Terrain tests are highly theoretical, and doesn't really use any features of the engine. (Plus it doesn't take state-changes and multipass into consideration)

Take a look at the maps coming with the game. Use /hud_istats=2, and watch the tris=xxxx line. This gives you the exact count of how many brush-triangles the engine renders per frame. Use cht_bfly=1, and you'll see that whenever the count raises above 1000, the game begins to get choppy on most computers. Karnak/Luxor/Sacret Yards are all good for this test.

Using more than 3000 polys per frame mostly makes the game crawl (unless most of them are 'Detail'). 100,000 world polys will kill it, but 100,000 model polys will be slow, but not kill it. 20,000-30,000 seems like a better maximum.

However a Sam level with 100,000 total world polys is not a problem, but only a fraction may be visible at the same time.
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Old 11-01-2001, 11:55 AM   #16   Add To Ignore List  
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My engine did pulled about 70 FPS with 100,000 triangles on the screen.  BWHAHAHAHA...look out CroTeam, here I come!
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Old 11-01-2001, 01:32 PM   #17   Add To Ignore List  
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Yearh

Just pushing an object to the gfx-card with a texture makes polycount very theoretical - then it's mostly a matter of the fill-rate of the card. Of course serving it as tristrips with state-change tree, vertex arrays or nvidia fence lists all makes some difference. But doing multipass, occlusion culling, sector traversal is something very different.  

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Old 11-01-2001, 05:52 PM   #18   Add To Ignore List  
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DarkReaper, you could probably do that with TRUFORM.
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