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Serious Sam 4 The place to talk about Croteam's next title: Serious Sam 4! What do you know? What do you hope to see in the next Sam game?

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Old 03-24-2016, 11:24 AM   #1   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Hello everyone.

This post is addressed to Croteam developers.
I'm going to talk about the multiplayer of Serious Sam.
How is it?
How is it changed?
How should the perfect multiplayer be?


Being one of the best Versus players on Serious Sam HD:TSE, and being aware that Croteam thinks Single Player is more important that the Multiplayer, I write this post with the hope that the dream of many Serious Sam players will once come true.
It's only up to you, Croteam

Let's talk about the best Multiplayer you've ever made!
Serious Sam HD:The Second Encounter is, in my opinion, one of the best games ever developed in the Earth. Its multiplayer is so perfect.
  • Movements are fast.
  • There is the curve jump, with witch you can reach even the most high step in the map
  • Weapons are almost balanced perfectly
  • There are dozens of very well designed maps
  • It's not like shitty games like Call of Duty, Battlefield and such, where you don't even have the time to return fire that you're dead!!!

And with the last red-highlighted bolded point I want to point out this:

Serious Sam HD:TSE Multiplayer is an Arena FPS!
What's the difference between FPS and Arena FPS?

Just like I said before, Arena FPS's movements are fast, snappy, quick.
You can regenerate your life, yes, but picking up health and armor!
So it's up to you to manage your life, not like Call of Duty where you camp in the corner waiting for the health bar to fill up!
In Arena FPS if someone shoots you, you have enough time (as long as you have enough health) to return fire or at least flee!

With this being said, let's talk about Serious Sam 3 BFE Versus mode!

The first point: for us, players and lovers of Serious SamHDTSE, the BFE Versus Mode was... a... disaster!

This is what I said in an old post in this section of the forum:

Quote:
Serious Sam HD has the best Versus Mode that Croteam has ever created.

In Serious Sam 3 it's full of stupid bugs due to carelessness by the developers.
  • When you hit the ground, it appears a dust cloud that you're no longer able to see anything!
  • When someone hits you, the red screen of damage is too red!
  • Jumps are foolishly low! Take a leaf from Serious Sam HD's jumps!
  • The sniper is too unbalanced! One hit and you're dead, and respawns in a very few time... tell me the sense of the other weapons then
  • Some animations need to be erased and remade...
  • The shift key to run faster... What is that??? Call of Duty???

The only thing I'm glad to see in Serious Sam 3, is the graphic improvement (weapons, characters, enemies...)

I hope Croteam will improve the Serious Sam 4 Versus because it's one the most important things of an Arena FPS.
So Croteam, what I'm trying to tell you is that Serious Sam 3 has brought a massive ammount of surprising news about graphic improvements.

But I don't know how (and that's a real question) you were capable to transform a so perfect/amazing/fantastic gameplay (the one of SSHD) into a real crap.

Please, absolutely DON'T TAKE this as an offense, but as a huuuge feedback from the whole community of Serious Sam Versus players.

"But Croteam doesn't care about the Multiplayer! The essence of Serious Sam is the single player!"

I've been told this from a lot of them in this forum.

I'm okay if Croteam likes single player mode more than the Versus. I'm okay if their reason of this is that Serious Sam was originally meant to be an awesome Single Player/Campaign mode.

But I'd be more okay if Croteam listened to the community. I know they already do but please... we were so disappointed from your SS3 Versus gameplay decisions that now we really wonder if you'd listen to us at least this second time...

I've been playing Serious Sam for a very short time. But I've already become one of the strongest players in the Versus.
I've known Croteam and their amazing company.
They led me to learn more about game development (because I already was a desktop developer in C#/C++).
Croteam led my eyes to the fancy immagination that once I'd have been one of them, or at least a desirable game developer in the industry.


♥ ♥ ♥ Thanks Croteam for what you've done ♥ ♥ ♥
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Old 03-24-2016, 04:19 PM   #2   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

+1

(Disclaimer I did not read all yet, but more attention to versus is always good..)
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Old 03-24-2016, 05:53 PM   #3   Add To Ignore List  
 
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

I will approach this in a more professional way. I did play SS3, but not the versus mode. I guess it is more or less like singleplayer.

Movement
Serious Sam's movement code is not fit for an Arena FPS game. It doesn't matter if the movement is fast or slow, movement doesn't feel smooth and jumping, falling, landing, air control aren't tuned right. The thing that bothers me the most is whenever I halt, I feel like being pushed to the direction of my previous movement way too much by Newton's 3rd law of motion or whatever it is called in the code.

Physics
The interactions you get after hitting slopes with certain velocities which are usually higher than players base movement speed is unbeneficial or/and annoying. Reactions to protrusions on ground is an another irritation. I've even seen player bouncing off the ground a little after a long fall or whenever bumping to the wall too fast as if you are made of semi-elastic material.

Weapons
Long range power weapon is the sniper. Mid range AoE power weapon is rocket launcher. Short range power weapon should be the flamethrower.
About the sniper, I'd say remove the zoom damage boost, I never liked it and I think it is retarded. There shouldn't be a penalty for using it unscoped.
Rocket launcher. I don't like Classics' and HD's rocket launchers. They travel slower than my grandmother and you can shoot them, which is an another retarded thing. The fact that you can shoot the rockets, makes it a shit tier weapon and there isn't an another good AoE weapon.
Flamethrower is ok, I guess.
Cannon is a problem. It should be a big map weapon. Or maybe about 1 of every 5 maps should have it.

Graphics
I don't give a flying fuck about it. Just nothing annoying that will hinder the players.

Maps
It is a fact that most maps are unbalanced because of the item placements. So please, DO NOT PUT IMPORTANT ITEMS TOGETHER IN ONE PLACE. You should give a chance to losing players. Otherwise an asshole like me will take lead, time the items very well, zone the shit out of the players, easily finish the map 20/0, 20/1, 50/0, etc.
Other than this, it is the usual stuff, spawn timers, what weapon to place, what weapon not to place based on architecture and item placements of the map. High ground/low ground strategic balancing, zoning balances.
Also don't place one million trees/other destructible objects in the map, it is irritating. Last thing the player cares after entering a deathmatch map is if the map looks good or bad. If it is so necessary, it can look good without those goddamn trees everywhere.

I've put movement first because I really dislike movement in Serious Sam games. If I had to pick one, it would be Serious Sam 2, it has the best movement out of all other games.
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Old 03-24-2016, 08:25 PM   #4   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Now this is one useful post!

Though, I think in SS3, the sniper got the same damage unscoped as scoped, but not sure.
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Old 03-25-2016, 01:19 PM   #5   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Can't say I've spent much time with the versus modes of SS. But as I remember them, they've never been properly balanced.

It takes a long time to tune a versus mode properly, be it DM, CTF or something else. And when I say time, I do mean time. Players need the time to get experienced with the weapons and the maps and all the game mechanics in order to properly judge weaknesses in weapon balance and map design. For a game like SS that has always been more focused on the single player/co-op experience, it's always going to be difficult to reach that balance unless there's a significant shift in focus from developers, testers and players.

I do understand that there's a dedicated group of SS versus players out there, but from what I've seen they're still a rather limited group.

As for weapons and "dying before you can return fire/run away", it's a quite common thing in most arena FPSs. Power strikes can be a quite important dynamic of the gameplay. They allow you to get "the jump" on someone and a proper (or lucky) power strike can turn the tide of events, especially in team-based modes. That said, power strikes need to be properly balanced too.

As for trees, really? Trees bother you? Is it because they're destructible or because you think they're needless visual clutter? Personally, I don't mind neither trees (indestructible visual clutter) or destructible items (can be trees). Both can serve a purpose from a gameplay perspective - destructible items in particular can be used to create more dynamic maps.

Personally, I find that a lot of self-proclaimed good/pro players whine too much about game design, while the truly good players just adapt. Yes, visual clutter can make it difficult to see enemies and can even be disorienting for some, but that is part of the premise of the map/gameplay. Some will be able to adapt to it and use it to their advantage, some will not.
Destructible objects will always be a thing of contention, especially in versus modes, but they can be used to make maps more dynamic or strategic, and have been used to do so in several games - even arena FPSs. Again, some will learn to adapt on the fly and take advantage of it, others will not.
Finally, there's item timing. This has always been something that some competitive players pride themselves on having mastered. And while I can certainly see that it takes both practice and skill to keep track of it, I've always found it to be a gameplay mechanic that serves to punish casual players unnecessarily. It gives complete dominance to any player that has the time and devotion to learn the spawn timings, while leaving all others with nothing to fight with because the weapon, armor, health and ammo pickups are "blocked" by those players who closely track the spawn timers. It results in a gameplay mechanic where the "better player" is continually rewarded with higher endurance and firepower, while the "lesser player" is punished with lower endurance and less firepower. If you ask me, spawn timers should always be randomized. Of course that would piss off a good deal of competitive players, who will no longer be able to "dominate" others the way they're used to.

Last edited by jasser; 03-25-2016 at 01:21 PM.
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Old 03-25-2016, 01:50 PM   #6   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

If there's a testing period for SS4 I'd gladly tear it to pieces. SSHD and SS3's versus mode, especially on the modding side, had a lot of issues.

The most glaring one being for VS Entities and how they function in the game world. Another being the stifling of innovation on the maps themselves. Not being able to move spawn points or flag entities or the such. If I could easily do those things the mode could have some nice mods for it. (Also making VS mods stand alone ala SS: Warped would be sick) The Sniper does the same damage in VS scoped/unscoped by the by.

That being said, a lot of your criticisms and complaints are from an opinionated side. You're upset that a game isn't set up like an Arena FPS when it clearly never set out to be. SS:HD is full of stupid bugs too. Also calling the developers careless and lazy is kind of a dick move when it comes to their game effort.

Also "Some animations need to be erased and remade..." HD needs this more. At least in SS3 when you run the guns you shoot aren't pointed to the floor.

"I've already become one of the strongest players in the Versus." also lol.
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Old 03-25-2016, 01:52 PM   #7   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Not being able to move spawn points of flag entities? What?

Can you explain this? Sounds like a bug.
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Old 03-25-2016, 04:10 PM   #8   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pan View Post
"I've already become one of the strongest players in the Versus." also lol.
To be able to say what's wrong in a game and criticize about something I should be at least experienced, don't you think?
Or are you doubting of the fact I one of the strongest?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pan View Post
That being said, a lot of your criticisms and complaints are from an opinionated side.
A game gets better thanks to players' opinions.
If you don't wanna call them opinions, call them feedbacks... that's the same
I archieved the opinion of the whole SS:HD community, me too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pan View Post
You're upset that a game isn't set up like an Arena FPS when it clearly never set out to be.
I listed both characteristics of a FPS and an Arena FPS and the SEVERAL differences between them, ending up that SS:HD is an Arena FPS... of course.
Maybe the developers didn't mean to make an Arena, but they did and were awesome.

My impression is that Serious Sam 3 is gradually moving Serious Sam Versus' concept from being an Arena to become a common FPS such as those we all know: Call of Duty, Battlefild, Halo.
Just look at the shift key to run and those very low jumps...

During the LIVE I asked to the developers "Will you take into account to improve the Serious Sam Versus mode?"

I made a mistake: their answer was something like "We will improve the versus, yes, but we are very far from being like games such as Call of Duty. So yes, it will be improved but don't expect miracles".

My intent wasn't to tell developers we want something like that.

I don't know why, but everytime they hear "improvement" they think about "Call of Duty" without being aware that their Serious Sam HD is amazing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pan View Post
SS:HD is full of stupid bugs too.
Never said it's bug-free.
Even Serious Sam HD has its bugs, but they're very few and fixable in 2 seconds.
The gameplay, game mechanics, map design... oh god, i can't complain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pan View Post
Also calling the developers careless and lazy is kind of a dick move when it comes to their game effort.
If you didn't notice, this post is about Versus mode.
Serious Sam 3's Campaign, with all those graphic improvements, is a real masterpiece.
You can even see the effort of the developers by just playing it.
It's awesome, really.

But its Versus mode... is something really to be erased forever.

It looks like they've spent a loooot of time making the single player, and then they've dedicated advanced time to the Versus.

This because if you carefully look at the BFE Versus, you'll notice it's like they moved the single player concept to the multiplayer.
That's absolutely wrong.

The versus must be quick, fast.
Serious Sam HD Campaign is slow, but then when it comes to the multiplayer it becomes fast as it should.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pan View Post
Also "Some animations need to be erased and remade..." HD needs this more.
I was waiting for this

Jumps:

The jump animation in Serious Sam 3 is high 1 centimeter.
You know what I mean?
There are predisposed barrels where you are supposed to jump on, but the jump is so low that you even have troubles trying to jump on there.

http://i.imgur.com/b6vrzYH.jpg

Hammer:

The hammer is a nightmare.

SS:HD had the knife: it was quick, and if you wanted to kill someone you did it immediately.

The Hammer animation is out of sync!

You click, it shoots and AFTER the animation finally begins.

http://i.imgur.com/Lgtx6Ro.jpg

This is funny:
http://i.imgur.com/2x6CmJ9.jpg

Christ on the cross

In the most of the cases, when you kill someone what you expect?
Any regular player would expect the dead character to fall to the ground.

In Serious Sam 3 it's not so.
When you kill someone here is what happens:

http://i.imgur.com/vQyjpZ2.jpg

The character gets paralyzed and after a couple of seconds disappears and respawns.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Pan View Post
Also calling the developers careless and lazy is kind of a dick move when it comes to their game effort.
You still sure?

Last edited by gedamial; 03-25-2016 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 03-25-2016, 04:39 PM   #9   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

>there should not be penalty for sniping unscoped

You've gotta be fucking kidding me.

As for the slopes thing, it allows for trick jumps or something that Angelo did. What should be fixed is the collisions imo.

The movement is worse than UT's; it feels clunky and not smooth at all. A better example it should follow would be Painkiller's.

Also the VS side of the game should have VS-only weapons or something like that.

But despite all that, Serious Sam needn't be yet another arena FPS, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't learn the lessons from other arena FPS. Currently it has not reach the potential it could have due to lack of concrete data. What is currently happening is that different players in their own different circles have their own different meta, but none of them have anything solid as to the correct way to grow SS VS due to multiple circumstances such as regions and communities. Not to mention that there's generally not enough players to make a difference, so we need something that the players can collect data on despite not having other players around.



tl;dr ADD BOTS
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Old 03-25-2016, 04:49 PM   #10   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

HUMMER! Rofl!

Anywho, what the "devs" (which includes me btw) said on the AMA, is that we want to improve the Versus, but when Alen mentioned CoD and Battlefield and whatnot; those games are MADE for multiplayer. So what he meant is to not expect that much focus on Versus as the focus on Singleplayer. But as I also said, if nothing else, there'll be more levels at launch than 3, like in SS3. Already confirmed Desert Temple returning from SSHD, and I actually have SS4's version of Little Trouble 90% finished.


Btw, I rarely say this, but Pika is right.
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Old 03-25-2016, 04:53 PM   #11   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solais View Post
there'll be more levels at launch than 3, like in SS3. Already confirmed Desert Temple returning from SSHD, and I actually have SS4's version of Little Trouble 90% finished.
The core of everything is the GAMEPLAY

Yes, level design is the 50% of the work, if not the 60%.

But here I'm talking about GAMEPLAY
which is a SHAME in Serious Sam 3!

*Hopefully these fancy colored words will permanently take place in your mind*

Last edited by gedamial; 03-25-2016 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 03-25-2016, 04:53 PM   #12   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Your secret project was remaking Little Trouble for SS4 all along?


Also I think what gedamial is talking about is the mechanics thing like player stats (movement speed, etc) and weapon stats (damage, rate of fire, etc).

Last edited by PikaCommando; 03-25-2016 at 04:56 PM.
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Old 03-25-2016, 05:23 PM   #13   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

No, that was my official project, my secret project is something else.

I get what he's talking about, but he haven't yet provided info that's not obvious. Yes, we know that SSHD got better Versus, that's why it was made free. But why it got better versus, the mechanics, tactics, meta, all that stuff is the useful bit. And not only what it does best, but its shortcomings.
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Old 03-25-2016, 05:31 PM   #14   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solais View Post
I get what he's talking about, but he haven't yet provided info that's not obvious. Yes, we know that SSHD got better Versus, that's why it was made free. But why it got better versus, the mechanics, tactics, meta, all that stuff is the useful bit. And not only what it does best, but its shortcomings.
I told you almost everything to know about the Versus of the HDTSE and the BFE, talking about the advantages and disadvantages.

What do you need else? Just tell and I'll provide.
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Old 03-25-2016, 05:32 PM   #15   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Uhmm.. it's pretty clear and obvious why HD's versus is so much better than BFE's versus. You don't need to be a rocket scientist (or even be a game designer for work) in order to see that.
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Old 03-25-2016, 06:24 PM   #16   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Well if it's really that easy and obvious to see, then there's no need for discussion, because everyone knows what to do.
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Old 03-25-2016, 06:29 PM   #17   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solais View Post
Well if it's really that easy and obvious to see, then there's no need for discussion, because everyone knows what to do.
If everyone knows what to do, and doesn't do it well... then this is carelessness.

This discussion is born to make you, Croteam developers, notice what you probably haven't noticed before.
I described all the situation, including bugs and avoidable game styles to implement in the next Serious Sam chapter.

What do you need?
I'm totally available.
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Old 03-25-2016, 06:37 PM   #18   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

I told you what info I'd need above. Some people who replied to your first post provided the kind of useful feedback.
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Old 03-25-2016, 06:45 PM   #19   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solais View Post
I told you what info I'd need above. Some people who replied to your first post provided the kind of useful feedback.
I've been repeating this for a long time:

I told you why the SS:HD versus is the best one of the series.
I told you why the BFE versus i the WORSTof the series.

I talked about the pros (maybe the only one) of the BFE: the crazy graphic improvement.
From this point, you can be able to make up the best multiplayer of the series.

Really, I can't figure out what else you need.

If I should really go into detail, speaking about weapons, maps&levels and how to balance them together, just let me know and tomorrow I'll write a post as big as the first one
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Old 03-25-2016, 07:12 PM   #20   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

ITT: People with opinions.


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Old 03-25-2016, 07:42 PM   #21   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

To be more precise - HD is great from a competitive design perspective - BFE is absolutely horrifyingly terrible from a competitive design perspective, and that should be obvious to most people who know at least a little bit about competitive game design..
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Old 03-25-2016, 09:58 PM   #22   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Just so OP knows, an Arena FPS is defined as FPS multiplayer having two things. (We discussed this ENDLESSLYYYY on the official Halo 5 forums before that turd came out, so please don't argue with me on this. lol)

1. Everyone starts out with the same weapons, movement, abilities, etc. Everything except the same skins and sounds of course.

2. You find weapons and pickups and maybe even abilities around the map and use them until you die and spawn again.

That's an Arena FPS. Nothing more or less.
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Last edited by Artificial; 03-25-2016 at 10:00 PM.
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Old 03-25-2016, 10:37 PM   #23   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4 is no multiplayer Deathmatch at all
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Old 03-25-2016, 11:41 PM   #24   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Yes, the Artificial man above is correct.

Anyway Solais, as to why it's got better versus:

1) Jumping
First of all, the jumping. Lower jump height = less movement range. For example, there's less things you can jump over. In SSHD you can skip the small stairs and just jump straight to the elevated area. Now that you can't jump like that anymore, the player can only walk around and take the stairs, and that will slow down the pace of the fire fight since the players has less options to move and needs more time to maneuver around. Also, less movement options = more predictability.

2) Sprinting
Personally, I don't really have any problems with this. After all, it gives the players more movement options and thus mess up the opponents' predictions of where the player will be. Although, one can argue that is exactly why it's bad.

3) Weapon Balance
Let's take a look at what HD TSE has to offer:

Knife/Chainsaw: Swift 1 hit kill on unarmored foe.
Revolvers: Shitty, useless, but it's what you start with. Humiliation weapons.
Shotgun: Reliable close-mid range damage.
Double Shotgun: Deadlier close-mid range damage, at the cost of firing speed.
Tommy Gun: Discount Minigun. Rapid damage dealer at all range.
Minigun: Discount Sniper Rifle. Rapid damage dealer at all range with higher damage per second.
Rocket Launcher: Good for close-mid range. Can be unreliable since your rockets can blow up in your face. Complete joke at long range.
Grenade Launcher: Spam gun. Discourages people from chasing after you due to how deadly it is on impact, which isn't that hard to achieve due to how spammable it is.
Flamethrower: Short-range harasser. The enemy is usually done for if exposed to flames for more than 2 seconds. Great if foes are too close for comfort and you see a nice corridor to escape to.
Lasergun: One of the best weapons in the game. Shreds enemies that aren't too far to dodge how fast it is. Requires a bit of prediction to maximize damage output.
Sniper Rifle: The meta weapon. Given the size of the maps, you're usually done for unless you can sneak up on the guy and get out of his scope's view.
Cannon: One hit killer at close-mid range. Anything beyond mid-range requires prediction and charging, during which you can get killed if the enemy had Tommy Gun/Minigun/Lasergun/Sniper. Also, no one is dumb enough to walk into a Cannonball at long range.

As you can see, the (Italian) HD TSE meta is defined by the Sniper Rifle. However, all other weapons have its uses and the weaponry as a whole is effective at any and all situation, meaning there's more ways to approach a combat situation. The Sniper Rifle may be the cream of the crop, but the options presented by the other weapons means that the sniper has more to watch out for. On maps without the Sniper Rifle, the gameplay becomes more varied because most of the other weapons being equal in dominance due to the multitude of situations presented.


Now, for SS3's:

Sledgehammer: 1 hit kill on unarmored foes, but not quick or reliable at all. The "ready up" system is wonky and you might press attack at the wrong time and have it do the long swing instead.
Pistol: Shitty, useless, but it's what you start with. Worsened by the accuracy drop when not in sights. Humiliation weapons.
Single Shotgun: Reliable close-mid range damage, but hampered by the fact that you have to reload.
Double Shotgun: Deadlier close-mid range damage, at the cost of firing speed.
Assault Rifle: Rapid close-mid range damage, hampered by the need to reload. Accuracy drop when not in sights means less damage in mid range and unreliable at long range.
Minigun: Discount Sniper Rifle. Rapid damage dealer at all range with higher damage per second. Does not share ammo with the Assault Rifle, which means ammo is scarcer.
Rocket Launcher: Good for close-mid range. Can be unreliable since your rockets can blow up in your face. Complete joke at long range.
Devostator: All-range anal destroyer. Requires prediction to hit enemies over mid range and beyond. Worthless splash damage means it can only be used as a discount sniper rifle.
Lasergun: One of the best weapons in the game. Shreds enemies that aren't too far to dodge how fast it is. Requires a bit of prediction to maximize damage output.
Sniper Rifle: The meta weapon. Given the size of the maps, you're usually done for unless you can sneak up on the guy and get out of his scope's view.
Cannon: One hit killer at close-mid range. Anything beyond mid-range requires prediction and charging, during which you can get killed if the enemy had Assault Rifle/Minigun/Lasergun/Sniper. Also, no one is dumb enough to walk into a Cannonball at long range.

As you can see, SS3 lacks specific area-of-denial weapon save for the Rocket Launcher and Cannon, which are not as spammable and are only useful at close-mid range. The latter is also more likely to kill you if fired in enclosed space. Also, the weapon mechanics such as reloading and ADS slows down the pace of firefights. The Sledgehammer mechanic makes it unreliable to use in combat. Separation of Minigun and Assault Rifle means the Minigun has less ammo, which means the Minigun is used less often, which means the Assault Rifle is used more often, which means reloading happens more often, which means it takes longer to kill that bitch, which means the fighting pace is slowed down more often.

The meta is still the Sniper Rifle, but all the other weapons are less varied thus more restricted in use. The Sniper Rifle is the absolute god here, owning all situations due to other weapons being discount versions of it. On maps without the Sniper Rifle, the Devostator is king instead. On maps without both, the gameplay is essentially discount HD TSE. Perhaps this is why people claim SS3's deathmatch as being worse than HD TSE's.



By the way, I made all that shit up because I never had the chance to fight with someone in any SS game because I'm outside the western world so I always have 400 ping which means I have no experience to speak from.

Oh, if only there are some magical, computer-controlled players that people like me can practice with so that we won't be obliterated when playing with the Italian Deathmatch Gods as well as being a method to gain combat experience.

Last edited by PikaCommando; 03-25-2016 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 03-26-2016, 04:24 AM   #25   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

I thought there was no reloading in SS3 Versus.
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Old 03-26-2016, 06:40 AM   #26   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Pika was brilliantly exhaustive, but as a Versus veteran I feel obliged to point out somethings:

SSHD:

Serious Damage
The SD in Serious Sam HD Multiplayer is very frustrating.
It multiplies the damage by 2,5. That's too much!

Knife:
The knife is terrible.
It kills everyone if you take them from behind, even though they have 200 health and 200 armor

Sniper:
The sniper is the most unbalanced weapon of the game. It takes off 160 (scope) and 80 (no-scope).

Rocket Launcher:
The Rocket Launcher takes off 150 of damage, and with the Serious Damage 375!!!
I suggest to decrease the damage to about 130

Minigun:
The Minigun has a very high fire rate and takes off 20 of damage, making the TommyGun completely useless.

Grenade Launcher:
As Pika said, the Grenade Launcher is a safe heaven for noobs: they keep spamming with it!
Its fire rate is too high!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Solais View Post
I thought there was no reloading in SS3 Versus.
There is, and that's sad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Artificial View Post
an Arena FPS is defined as FPS multiplayer having two things.

1. Everyone starts out with the same weapons, movement, abilities, etc. Everything except the same skins and sounds of course.

2. You find weapons and pickups and maybe even abilities around the map and use them until you die and spawn again.

That's an Arena FPS. Nothing more or less.
Don't forget the movement and game mechanics which are totally different from FPS in general!
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Old 03-26-2016, 07:16 AM   #27   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Also the votation system in Serious Sam in general is so stupid sometimes.

It often happens that when I'm about to win a match, there are votations to kick you because of the rage of who's losing the match.
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Old 03-26-2016, 07:18 AM   #28   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

If you can't beat 'em, ban 'em.
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Old 03-26-2016, 07:22 AM   #29   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Now this is a lot more useful information!
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Old 03-26-2016, 07:43 AM   #30   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by gedamial View Post
Serious Damage
The SD in Serious Sam HD Multiplayer is very frustrating.
It multiplies the damage by 2,5. That's too much!
The Quad Damage in Quake 3 Arena multiplies damage by 3, no one complains about it
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