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Old 03-26-2016, 07:45 AM   #31   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

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Originally Posted by God Of Gaming View Post
The Quad Damage in Quake 3 Arena multiplies damage by 3, no one complains about it
In Quake 3 Arena weapons aren't as unbalanced as in Serious Sam
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Old 03-26-2016, 07:49 AM   #32   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by gedamial
Quote:
Originally Posted by Solais
I thought there was no reloading in SS3 Versus.
There is, and that's sad.
... Have you even played SS3 Versus? Because if you have, you should know that the only weapon that reloads in Versus is the Devastator; The other normally-reloadable weapons (Pistol, Single Shotgun, and Assault Rifle) can all fire continuously without reloading. Just as well, earlier, you were talking about the Sledgehammer and how there was a delay before attacking... which is only used in Single Player and Co-op. Versus has the hammer always at the ready, and it'll hit almost instantaniously when you swing.


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Not being able to move spawn points of flag entities? What?

Can you explain this? Sounds like a bug.
He probably means mid-simulation. Trying to move those entities by parenting them to an object or "SetPlacement"ing them directly through scripting doesn't work. (I can confirm for the flags; Haven't tried with the Spawn Markers)
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Old 03-26-2016, 07:58 AM   #33   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Yeah, I was wondering if there was a patch that added in reloading in SS3 versus. Haven't played it in years, but I remember testing it in beta, including the levels later added when the DLC was released, and I clearly remembered there being no reload. Only with the devastator, for balance reasons.

And yeah, the Serious Damage is not exactly the problem. From what I see, with the data I gathered, the main problem in SS versus, both SS3 and SSHD, is that the weapons are too strong. So if it was me, I'd probably change that first. Second, I'd remove the pistol and would add the AR as the starting weapon. Third, I'd differentiate the two shotguns, but I'd do that in SP as well.


Hmm, moving flags... that's an interesting idea!
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Old 03-26-2016, 08:26 AM   #34   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

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Originally Posted by gedamial View Post
Serious Damage
The SD in Serious Sam HD Multiplayer is very frustrating.
It multiplies the damage by 2,5. That's too much!
Agreed.

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Originally Posted by gedamial View Post
Knife:
The knife is terrible.
It kills everyone if you take them from behind, even though they have 200 health and 200 armor
Disagreed. Getting behind someone and knifing them doesn't mean the weapon is OP, it means the other player has mis-predicted your movements and doesn't realize they're behind you. Good job.

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Originally Posted by gedamial View Post
Sniper:
The sniper is the most unbalanced weapon of the game. It takes off 160 (scope) and 80 (no-scope).
To elaborate on why this is bad: You spawn with 150. On Fortress especially, this is very frustrating. Since the spawn points on Fortress are really badly placed, you can spawnkill pretty much infinitely [well, until your ammo is empty, there was a balancing patch for this before, but it ended up not helping too much with this problem] because scoped kill is instakill on newly spawned players.

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Rocket Launcher:
The Rocket Launcher takes off 150 of damage, and with the Serious Damage 375!!!
I suggest to decrease the damage to about 130
130 sounds okay, but I'd say this requires testing. The spawn-killability isn't as high with this as the sniper. Getting a direct hit with a rocket is somewhat impressive considering the movement speed in this game. So 150 might still be okay.

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Minigun:
The Minigun has a very high fire rate and takes off 20 of damage, making the TommyGun completely useless.
Agreed. I suggest looking at the weapon balancing in the original FE deathmatch, as you need to use the tommygun a lot more there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gedamial View Post
Grenade Launcher:
As Pika said, the Grenade Launcher is a safe heaven for noobs: they keep spamming with it!
Its fire rate is too high!
Disagreed. When used in moderation during TLT duels (honor rules), it's a pretty decent weapon. Spam to get away from a situation, or just launch some grenades around a corner to lure out an enemy. Reducing the amount of available ammo for this could solve this problem without significantly impacting the original purpose of the grenade launcher.
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Old 03-26-2016, 08:46 AM   #35   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

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Reducing the amount of available ammo for this could solve this problem without significantly impacting the original purpose of the grenade launcher.
Yes, that would be a significant solution!

But the Serious Damage is frustrating... noob + sd = pro player

Last edited by gedamial; 03-26-2016 at 08:48 AM.
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:09 AM   #36   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

That's kinda its purpose... Also, if you're a "pro player", shouldn't you know the respawn timer of the SD, and deny it from the "noobs"?
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:13 AM   #37   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Yes, SD is great for casual matches, but in competitive matches it's a PITA (which is why honor rules deny both use of sniper & SD)
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:20 AM   #38   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

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Originally Posted by Scratch View Post
Yes, SD is great for casual matches, but in competitive matches it's a PITA (which is why honor rules deny both use of sniper & SD)
In fact when we duel we always disable the SD and avoid the sniper for its ridiculous scope-damage.

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Originally Posted by Solais View Post
That's kinda its purpose... Also, if you're a "pro player", shouldn't you know the respawn timer of the SD, and deny it from the "noobs"?
But of course!
Pro players prevent noobs from taking the SD, but there are circumstances where it's not possible.

The pro player is dead and respawns on the other part of the map and in the meantime someone else grabs the SD.
Or, again, where the pro player is low and prefers picking up the Armor +200 instead of risking his life trying to grab the SD.

A pro player can time everything, but that doesn't justify that the SD should multiply damage so much!

Again, rocket + sd = 375 of damage!

That is ridiculous.
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:22 AM   #39   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Well, you have to have an ideal route planned when playing a certain map, and make sure you deny the strong weapon or powerup from them; that's how them multiplayer battle arenas work in FPS games. Online. As some people would say: "git good".

Ideally, the versus maps are also designed in a way that these strong weapons and powerups are placed either in hard to reach areas, or the most populated, most "dangerous to approach" areas. If some maps have them elsewhere, then that's a problem in map balance.

The interesting part is that sniper no-scoped is weaker than the similar role railgun in Quake 3, from what I know.
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Last edited by Solais; 03-26-2016 at 09:26 AM.
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:24 AM   #40   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

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Originally Posted by Solais View Post
Well, you have to have an ideal route planned when playing a certain map, and make sure you deny the strong weapon or powerup from them; that's how them multiplayer battle arenas work in FPS games. Online. As some people would say: "git good".

Ideally, the versus maps are also designed in a way that these strong weapons and powerups are placed either in hard to reach areas, or the most populated, most "dangerous to approach" areas. If some maps have them elsewhere, then that's a problem in map balance.
We are not speaking about maps. The SD can be placed wherever you want, but a pro player can't always avoid noobs/other players to take it.
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:31 AM   #41   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Well, I think that's just the name of the game. Wouldn't exactly be fair if a good player could dominate without any fallback mechanics for the less skilled players.
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:39 AM   #42   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

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Well, I think that's just the name of the game. Wouldn't exactly be fair if a good player could dominate without any fallback mechanics for the less skilled players.
Yes, agreed. But the fact it multiplies too much is still a valid discussion.
It causes caos! Spamming everywhere with the rocket and grenades multiplied by 2, it's terrible!
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:50 AM   #43   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

I think it's not the SD's fault, as mentioned above, the Quad Damage multiplies damage by 3. The problem is that the weapons are likely too strong. As Totalbiscuit pointed out in his video about the SS3 Versus, the shotguns for one are too strong compared to other Arena FPS.

My idea is that first, the balance should be similar to Quake 3. Then diversifying.
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:56 AM   #44   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

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Originally Posted by Solais View Post
I think it's not the SD's fault, as mentioned above, the Quad Damage multiplies damage by 3. The problem is that the weapons are likely too strong. As Totalbiscuit pointed out in his video about the SS3 Versus, the shotguns for one are too strong compared to other Arena FPS.
The more the weapons are balanced the less would the Serious Damage be intimidating, that's sure.

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My idea is that first, the balance should be similar to Quake 3. Then diversifying.
Keep in mind that Quake 3 is not perfectly balanced yet
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:01 AM   #45   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Quake Live definitely made the weapons weaker, yeah.
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:25 AM   #46   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

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Quake Live definitely made the weapons weaker, yeah.
When I used to play Quake Live there was a timer on the items once you took those, so it was easier to determine the next respawn of that item. Now I don't know if it was removed.

NEVER DO THAT IN SERIOUS SAM!

Another thing I'd like to talk about is the Weapon switching.

Almost in the 90% of the cases, when you're engaged in a face-to-face battle with another player, you feel the extreme importance to change weapon to take him down.

Unfortunately Serious Sam has the problem that the Weapon Switch sometimes is very slow and can take off even 2-3 precious seconds!
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:28 AM   #47   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Actually, why it's bad that there's a visible timer? It would be easier for new players to learn the game, while for pro players, it doesn't really matter, because they already memorized the time.
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:39 AM   #48   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

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Actually, why it's bad that there's a visible timer? It would be easier for new players to learn the game, while for pro players, it doesn't really matter, because they already memorized the time.
Solais you are a good man and very probably an excellent designer, but you probably lost the sight of what being competitive means.

Quake's pro players turned up their nose when they heard about that update.
That makes easier to time items for noobs, that would make Serious Sam lose the competitiveness it already has!

That is a stupid update for stupid players who aren't able to time anything!

Where is the competitiveness in that update?
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Old 03-26-2016, 11:25 AM   #49   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Adding timers does not make things less competitive. It makes things more clear. There's ALSO a different sort of strategy that comes up with it... if someone gets a powerup and nobody is around to see it taken, they have no idea when it will respawn again, or when it was taken. This gives MORE power to the people who took the powerup, and leads to a "camp the powerup room" scenario.

When you see respawn timers for powerups, you can determine when they were taken, and when you need to return. You suddenly don't have to camp a powerup that won't respawn for 2 minutes. You can go around different parts of the map. You can also see, whoever took this powerup took it super recently, I should be careful.

It takes away a lot of extra strategical power that the person w/ the powerup got. They already got the powerup... they don't need everything else that comes with that.
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Old 03-26-2016, 11:27 AM   #50   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

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Adding timers does not make things less competitive. It makes things more clear. There's ALSO a different sort of strategy that comes up with it... if someone gets a powerup and nobody is around to see it taken, they have no idea when it will respawn again, or when it was taken. This gives MORE power to the people who took the powerup, and leads to a "camp the powerup room" scenario.

When you see respawn timers for powerups, you can determine when they were taken, and when you need to return. You suddenly don't have to camp a powerup that won't respawn for 2 minutes. You can go around different parts of the map. You can also see, whoever took this powerup took it super recently, I should be careful.

It takes away a lot of extra strategical power that the person w/ the powerup got. They already got the powerup... they don't need everything else that comes with that.
Disagreed.
Those are facilitations for noobs = not competitive.
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Old 03-26-2016, 11:34 AM   #51   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

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When I used to play Quake Live there was a timer on the items once you took those, so it was easier to determine the next respawn of that item. Now I don't know if it was removed.
That's not visible in actual competitive matches.

Also, as far as I'm aware, quads in Quakecon tournaments are only available in CTF, not duels.
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Old 03-26-2016, 11:43 AM   #52   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

I agree with MEA. You see, a problem with some "pro players", that they often form their own circles of "pro players", and obviously, they want to be still on the top. That's boring, and it's not competitive. Adding in stuff that's helpful for "noobs", while doesn't actually decrease competitiveness for the "pros" (since they already learned the timers), actually makes the games MORE competitive, because it is less likely that new players leave (having no chance against the more experienced players), more likely that new players become "pro", and with it, the community grows, more people = more competition.

The timers seem to be an excellent idea, will discuss it with the rest of the team. Of course, it should be an option (either per server or per player).

In a way, this is why I understand leveling and such in modern FPS games. It's a sort of gating mechanism, that helps new players become better and to make sure that they play with players of similar skill, instead of the "pro players" ruining the fun of the new players, which would end up with them leaving.
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Old 03-26-2016, 11:44 AM   #53   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

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Adding timers does not make things less competitive.
Tell that to the Enemy Territory guys
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Old 03-26-2016, 11:52 AM   #54   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

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I agree with MEA. You see, a problem with some "pro players", that they often form their own circles of "pro players", and obviously, they want to be still on the top. That's boring, and it's not competitive. Adding in stuff that's helpful for "noobs", while doesn't actually decrease competitiveness for the "pros" (since they already learned the timers), actually makes the games MORE competitive, because it is less likely that new players leave (having no chance against the more experienced players), more likely that new players become "pro", and with it, the community grows, more people = more competition.

The timers seem to be an excellent idea, will discuss it with the rest of the team. Of course, it should be an option (either per server or per player).

In a way, this is why I understand leveling and such in modern FPS games. It's a sort of gating mechanism, that helps new players become better and to make sure that they play with players of similar skill, instead of the "pro players" ruining the fun of the new players, which would end up with them leaving.
If you really want to make noobs have fun, then create a Matchmaking system so they won't play against skilled people.
Don't ruin the game with the spawn timers
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Old 03-26-2016, 12:22 PM   #55   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Ah yes, but a matchmaking system would potentially include all those "modern" stuff like leveling and whatnot, isn't it? We don't want the game to be CoD and all that right? How ironic.
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Old 03-26-2016, 12:26 PM   #56   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

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Ah yes, but a matchmaking system would potentially include all those "modern" stuff like leveling and whatnot, isn't it? We don't want the game to be CoD and all that right? How ironic.
Unreal Tournament gives a skill number to each player and there are servers with skill restrictions, so a matchmaking system won't require Call of Duty crap things
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Old 03-26-2016, 12:31 PM   #57   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

I'm pretty sure it's a very similar system.
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Old 03-26-2016, 12:33 PM   #58   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

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I'm pretty sure it's a very similar system.
No.

There are free servers where everyone with mixed skill levels can play, and other ones where there are skill restriction.
That would be pretty cool, but I still disagree about setting spawn timers.

Horribles.
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Old 03-26-2016, 12:35 PM   #59   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

Spawn timers are a great idea, and as I said before, it would be optional. Then again, from my experience, pro players don't like optional stuff and people having fun, so there you go.

Seems like UT got a system similar to Starcraft 2's ladder. Could be interesting to investigate.
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Old 03-26-2016, 12:39 PM   #60   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Message for Croteam: The ideal Multiplayer for Serious Sam 4

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Seems like UT got a system similar to Starcraft 2's ladder. Could be interesting to investigate.
It's way more clever and wise than setting up spawn timers, that's sure
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