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Serious Sam 4 The place to talk about Croteam's next title: Serious Sam 4! What do you know? What do you hope to see in the next Sam game?

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Old 06-01-2016, 11:28 PM   #151   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

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Originally Posted by Solais View Post
I played games with cheats for like 6-7 years. If it took me that long to get tired of being the most overpowered, then for others, it might be similar, if I go with your point of view that you are "guaranteeing" here.

Mind you, I don't disagree with your version of upgrades, I'm just playing a Devil's Advocate about this whole view of "this and that SHOULD be like this even though it's a Singleplayer game". If it was a competitive multiplayer game where there have to be balance and whatnot, then it would be a much simpler discussion. But it's not, and in Singleplayer, you can choose how to play. A "this is how you should play the game" view is what led to games having checkpoints instead of regular saves, as well.
But cheats aren't what we're talking about here. If what we're talking about is the option given to players to be overpowered in one degree or another, then yes, that's what the cheats are there for. Heck, I love to turn on infinite ammo and do a fun speedrun once I clear a game on normal. But that's beside the point.

For normal play, there obviously needs to be a challenge. And hey, if you can find a way to join these two ways of weapon balancing together so both players are happy, then full steam ahead I say. But I really don't see how that's possible. It comes down to, do you want it to be a steady progression of power or a steady progression of destructive options? I think the latter is superior to the former in this regard.
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Old 06-02-2016, 02:37 AM   #152   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

It is also the players' choice if they want to be challenged, and how hard. Some don't even want to, just have a relaxed good time.
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Old 06-02-2016, 02:50 AM   #153   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

If you give the players an option to install an upgrade that makes their weapon more powerful, or not to install it, everyone will install it, so that's not really a choice. It's not the same as cheats, where most people will not even know them, and only the ones who want them really badly will go the extra mile to find out what the cheats are and how to activate them, now that is a choice.

BTW one more vote for the Quake 4 upgrade mechanic, where which upgrade and on what weapon you gonna get happens in defined places in the maps, not only it feels more old school, but it also allows the level designers to know which upgrades you will have later on and be able to design and balance the battles for that.
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Old 06-02-2016, 05:19 AM   #154   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

You can't really speak for every player out there. Someone might not install it. It's again the same argument as the Single Shotgun vs Double Shotgun against kleers. I personally go with the Single Shotgun.

And if you provide more than one upgrade, with the possibility of only affording one upgrade, then that will become a choice as well. Including not getting any of the available upgrades to save up for another upgrade later.
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Old 06-02-2016, 05:26 AM   #155   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

The question is: how much does Serious Sam need to innovate and how much it just needs to refine.
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Old 06-02-2016, 06:10 AM   #156   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

Question is also: How much you can still innovate in the FPS genre in general.
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Old 06-02-2016, 08:55 AM   #157   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

question is also: will it even be Serious Sam any longer if they keep adding such drastic changes? Or will it turn into something completely different that only shares the title name, like Quake->Quake 2 did
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Old 06-02-2016, 08:56 AM   #158   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

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Originally Posted by Solais View Post
It is also the players' choice if they want to be challenged, and how hard. Some don't even want to, just have a relaxed good time.
You can't make core gameplay concessions for every possible player out there, that's just ridiculous. There's easier difficulties for that, or cheats. I don't think an old-school game like Serious Sam will ever benefit from user-defined upgrades anyway, especially from a balancing standpoint. The best way to make weak weapons viable later in the game is by letting the developers define where a weapon is made relevant again. That way they can match their enemy scripting to that, and not every possible weapon upgrade combination turning it into a giant clusterfuck of possiblities.
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Old 06-02-2016, 09:10 AM   #159   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

If new Doom could benefit from it, I don't see any reason why SS can't.

GoG: You are overreacting. Then again, it seems a lot of people can't easily grasp the idea that a Sam game can be different than what we already seen. Reminds me of the outrage about SS3 having reloads, aiming and sprinting. And then it suddenly became almost like a norm. Funny that.

Discy: There's more to that than enemy scripting. What if modifiers are used? Like if you have x amount of upgrades, enemies get y stronger. Also... why is it even a problem that enemies are not tuned for that? It makes the game too easy? For you? Maybe for others, the game is already unbeatable even on Tourist (yes, I heard about people like that). Maybe they could use something like that.

Or you know. We could stop thinking about "balance" of a Singleplayer game, and think about the cool factor, the fun factor and the enjoyment factor. We could think about how the system could add other benefits, like more focus on exploration, or more replayabiltiy, by trying out different upgrades and whatnot. There's simply no reason for SS to be always the same game over and over and not try to add new mechanics, as long as its core soul remains intact. And that's lots of weapons, enemies and the subtle relationship between the two.
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Old 06-02-2016, 11:29 AM   #160   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

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It is also the players' choice if they want to be challenged, and how hard. Some don't even want to, just have a relaxed good time.
That's what Tourist is for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solais View Post
Or you know. We could stop thinking about "balance" of a Singleplayer game, and think about the cool factor, the fun factor and the enjoyment factor. We could think about how the system could add other benefits, like more focus on exploration, or more replayabiltiy, by trying out different upgrades and whatnot. There's simply no reason for SS to be always the same game over and over and not try to add new mechanics, as long as its core soul remains intact. And that's lots of weapons, enemies and the subtle relationship between the two.
But weapon balance is the key here. You can't just start adding upgrades without changing the balance of the game. Now, obviously there are more things to talk about, but weapons are one of the most important elements in an FPS to focus on obviously.

And again, I'm not against upgrades at all. I just don't think they should change the overall power of the gun.
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Old 06-02-2016, 12:58 PM   #161   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

I'm with Solais here 100%. I'm hoping that SS4 is going to take risks and do things that may be seen as unorthodox, as long as they are implemented well of course.
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Old 06-02-2016, 03:22 PM   #162   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

Well, I don't know where I stand on weapon upgrades. It can be a good or a bad thing, depending on implementation. However, I do think that those that say something needs to be shaken up a bit are right. You can't just deliver the same game as SS3 with new maps. We already have that in custom maps for SS3. There has to be some sort of evolution - new weapons, new gameplay mechanics, new enemies, new environments, new something.

Sprinting was a nice addition in SS3 that changed the gameplay. Reloading was a good way to balance out weapons and force players to keep track of what they were doing (well, more so than what is required in HD and SS2). There were some new enemy designs - some worked out better than others. Jetpacks are just stupid fun that nearly makes you immortal (if you know how to use them) - but they were still so much fun.

Sometimes you just gotta change things up and take a chance. Some things are going to work out, others are not. But if you're so afraid of making things worse or too complicated that you never dare to experiment with things, then it's impossible to make something fresh and exciting. All SS games had something new in them. FE --> SE added crazy gravity, new weapons and more varied locations. SE --> SS2 added vehicles, new weapons and NPCs, SS2 --> HD added new game modes, HD --> SS3 added new gameplay mechanics and a new way to tell the story. Each game has good elements and bad elements, but they're all unique in their own way.

SS4 needs to be unique in it's own way. There's a lot of knowledge about what worked and didn't in the previous games and even experience from Talos can be brought into the development of SS4. I'm sure Croteam have plenty of ideas that they're already discussing and experimenting with for all aspects of SS4 and I trust that they have a very good idea of what changes they're making from the previous games and why.

Edit: and that's without opening up the bag of ideas from other games.

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Old 06-03-2016, 06:55 AM   #163   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

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Well, I don't know where I stand on weapon upgrades. It can be a good or a bad thing, depending on implementation. However, I do think that those that say something needs to be shaken up a bit are right. You can't just deliver the same game as SS3 with new maps. We already have that in custom maps for SS3. There has to be some sort of evolution - new weapons, new gameplay mechanics, new enemies, new environments, new something.
I wholeheartedly agree with that, but implementing a weapon upgrade system that not only will take a lot of time and effort to balance but can still go horribly wrong is a waste of time for a small company like Croteam where time is important. Then there's the issue that a lot of developers are cramming crafting and player upgradeable stuff (hell, even attempts at sandbox worlds) into their games, so that's no way to make your game stand out anymore. Sprinting/iron sights/reloading added a fresh layer to the gameplay because it fit, it didn't feel like a forced trend like player upgradeable weapons would. I stand by my point that if weapons need to be upgradeable the designer should be responsible for when to upgrade which weapon. And there's a lot of better stuff the game could benefit from.
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Old 06-03-2016, 07:06 AM   #164   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

Sprinting, aiming and reloading felt like a forced trend at the time SS3 was released. We all remember the backlash. And now, it's a "fresh layer to the gameplay because it fit".
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Old 06-03-2016, 07:07 AM   #165   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

The backlash by a few isn't the same as forced trend. All those things have been common enough for at least five years since before Sam3's release.
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Old 06-03-2016, 07:23 AM   #166   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

I'd still rather not have sprinting and aiming, imo they don't fit at all. Reloading is a good idea though, but it sure can be done better than it was in SS3
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Old 06-03-2016, 07:32 AM   #167   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

Upgrades, or similar (like perks and whatnot) have been common enough for years now too, especially in "old-school-like" FPS games, like Shadow Warrior, Wolfenstein, Doom. And even before those, there were the Far Cry games and the like.
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Old 06-03-2016, 07:47 AM   #168   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

I think the sprinting would work better if it was automatic and happen only when moving forward and not firing.
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Old 06-03-2016, 08:27 AM   #169   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

Yeah, wanna aslo some autoaiming too, heading your camera directly to the enemies, instead of you?
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Old 06-03-2016, 08:43 AM   #170   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

There's already auto-aim in SS, either when you use a controller or as a cheat when not.
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Old 06-03-2016, 11:41 AM   #171   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solais View Post
Upgrades, or similar (like perks and whatnot) have been common enough for years now too, especially in "old-school-like" FPS games, like Shadow Warrior, Wolfenstein, Doom. And even before those, there were the Far Cry games and the like.
As a CT member you may know, but you may not - few years ago (2 or 3) I shared some ideas with Alen, one of which was about the weapons. I offered such a decision: There is huge variety of weapons and you can only choose up to 2 weapons per weapon type. Weapon types were something like:

1. Melee weapons
- Bare hands
- Knife
- Bonecracker Chainsaw
- Boneslasher Circular saw
- Sledgehammer

...and so on, whit the next weapon types.
2. Pistols
3. Shotguns
4. Automatic Support
5. Light Artillery
6. Advanced Support
7. Hi-tech support
8. Heavy Artillery

There will be main set of weapons, mixture of old guns and new "faces", huge variety of secret ONLY weapons and before each level you must choose which weapons to use from your inventory. Also almost all the weapons had alternative firemode, including all the classic ones. For example - XL2 laser gun returns with alternative mode - Ghostbuster.
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Old 06-03-2016, 11:57 AM   #172   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

I talked with him about a bunch of similar ideas too, yes. I also sent him my own weapon lists and whatnot.
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:08 PM   #173   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

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There's already auto-aim in SS, either when you use a controller or as a cheat when not.
That's actually kind of cool. It's fun to have an aimbot to play around with in SP every once in awhile.

I think we're overthinking this though, honestly. "How can we innovate further," is not the right question. Rather it is, "What would we like to see next in Serious Sam?" Let's look at Halo 3 really quick. It brought all these new things to the table for Halo:

Theater
Forge
File Share
Equipment
2 More Types of Grenades
5 New Weapons + 4 New "Mounted" Weapons
6 New Drivable Vehicles
Veto System for Matchmaking
11 New Maps (Some of which are the best for Halo I've seen in, well, ever.)
2 New Gametypes
Much More Custom Game Options
Customizable Armor
New Enemies

But if you notice something, allllll of that had already been done before in past games. So does that make Halo 3 a bad game? Nooooooooo... Some of my BEST memories of gaming are spending the night playing split-screen Halo 3 matches with my friends. I loved that game. A lot of people loved that game. But nevertheless, it didn't actually do anything NEW. So anyway. What would I like to see next in SS? I said in a last post that for me that would be,

1. To give multiple routes to the exit in most of the levels.
2. Alternate fire modes which I detailed heavily as to how it could be done for each weapon.
3. More mobility/enemy grabbing and throwing annddd...
4. Bots for multiplayer.

I would also add Theater mode to all that too but I think just all that would be a bit too much to add on top of everything else at the moment. XP Maybe in some DLC perhaps.

Also, Croteam should keep in mind, they, of course, have a powerful editor shipping with the game. And if there's a good base to play off of and a great editor, people WILL make content for it! Unreal Tournament is a perfect example of this, or even Garry's Mod.
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Old 06-03-2016, 12:08 PM   #174   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

@Solais
I think this is better decision than the overused upgrades and perks.
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Old 06-04-2016, 05:12 AM   #175   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

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I think we're overthinking this though, honestly. "How can we innovate further," is not the right question. Rather it is, "What would we like to see next in Serious Sam?"
This is what I think as well when reading the thread. A lot of things that are overcomplicated too much to the point when it doesn't even looksappropriate for SS but rather for some different game. I'd like to see a proper and recognizable Serious Sam game in the first place. Thus said, adding a lot of monsters, enemies and huge maps doesn't make something SS game. It's first of all having a traditional cast of features, pace and feel of the game. Tactical and strategical points of the games.

If they wanna make the best SS game, they should first of all engage all the best features from the previous games and correct/improve them a little bit to the point of utter perfection. A lot of potential lies in previous games, and there are things that people like a lot. Why waste such a good potential? There are also some good ideas besides the official 'canon' games but spin-offs as well. Hell, just take Next Encounter as example: despite the fact some people from CT dislike it iirc, it had a lot of great things or even better than the CT games did.

There is also no need to overcomplicate things in SS. It wasn't a rpg/roguelike/military/moba fps. It was pretty simple with a lot of universal rules and strict laws of its world which allowed player to git gud while learning and practising 'em. Removing or changing these rules and laws, overcomplicating some features, adding a lot of stuff just "cause it's cool and other games had that too" isn't gonna help. There must be a careful balance between traditional and modern sides of gamedesign with a focus on the overall SS style so that it won't look like another game. Every new SS game since SS2 changes something significantly, and it seems that CT couldn't understand what was the defining design point of classic games that made the name to SS, and lost the focus while the majority of ordinary fans still knows what was good or bad in previous games and what they want to see, and that's the best and most simple PoV. So, in short, just try to make a recognizable SS game with the best outstanding and working features from previous games, and then think about making the new ones in the spirit of it and see if they'll work.

Covering this thread's name, "do you think Serious Sam is missing something?", I'd add my personal list:

Old features from previous games like:
- variety of colorful locations
- detailed lore
- Netricsa interactions and her jokes
- funny oneliners
- chainsaw/flamer/plasmagun (ss2)/serious bomb/Sirian power gun (tne)
- zorgs/highlander reptiloids
- bosses without gimmicky things, like Kukulkan
- vehicles like TNE/2
- secret areas and even maps
- actual funny and useful secrets
- more small underwater sections
- more indoor bright sections or at least lighted enough to see the shit
- more fun things to do on the maps besides constant rip'n'tearing
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Old 06-04-2016, 05:56 AM   #176   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

I wouldn't say that most fans still know what was that "defining point" in classics, considering the rather divided fanbase about the three major styles we seen so far. I personally think that all three major games had in them what made them a Serious Sam game, what didn't work out for 2 and 3 (and in some recursive extent, even 1, even though that defined what SS was) is trying to build on that basis. I do think they were close, but not quite hit the spot yet.
To what is that soul... it is very hard to define, I think. I like to delude myself that I know it, but not sure if I really do, because it is just so hard to word it.

I do have my own ideas to how I would try to build on that basis (and taking TSE as the basis point, not SS3 nor TFE), but I don't think it will ever happen, so it's mostly just wishful thinking.
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Old 06-04-2016, 07:32 AM   #177   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

I agree with pretty much all of your post except this:

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Originally Posted by FreekNik View Post
- bosses without gimmicky things, like Kukulkan
I'm sorry, but are you saying Kukulkan is a gimmicky boss? I can't actually disagree more. The other two bosses are pretty generic: Larva is just a hanging sack of meat with lasers, larva shooters and plasma casters while Mordekai is a teleporting enemy spawner. Kukulkan embodies what a fun boss is supposed to be. His damage output might be abysmal, but the fight is insane. Fighting dozens of monsters that keep getting more powerful while you race for the powerups and items, and eventually everybody and everything including projectiles is getting flung through the air at high speed while a blistering song fills your ears? Yes please! It's Serious Sam at its most frantic, and that particular boss fight is the most fun I've had in the entire game even after beating it many times.

If you are saying Kukulkan is the only non-gimmicky boss, then I agree.
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Old 06-04-2016, 08:43 AM   #178   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

He means it's a not gimmicky boss.

Though, what is gimmicky, I wonder? Because "simple" bosses are bad just as well, when they are just big, boring bulletsponges. I think Ugh-Zan 3 was the best designed boss of the SS series so far, followed by Exotech Larva and Kukulkán. With the exception of maybe the Khnum of LotB and the Giant Scrapjack of JotN, most of the other bosses were garbage.
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Old 06-04-2016, 11:24 AM   #179   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

I don't like how SS3 only had one boss that wasn't just a common enemy for later in the game. But, credit where credit is due, Ugh-Zan IV is rather creative and unique even if not quite as good as Ugh-Zan III or even Kukulkan.
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Old 06-04-2016, 12:38 PM   #180   Add To Ignore List  
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Default Re: Do you think Serious Sam is missing something?

Ugh-Zan IV was vastly improved in Solais's Extended Mod, when there's a second phase of the battle that allows you to actually shoot Ughzy with guns instead of tossing more lightning rods into his back. Boss Battles are generally improved when there's a new system of attacks introduced about mid-way.

Next Encounter had a unique selection of bosses. The Diablotaur acts like a miniature Ugh-Zan III on wheels (absolute hell to fight on Serious difficulty, though, holy crap), until you deal enough damage to point where he decides to use charging attacks exclusively. It doesn't necessarily involve phases, either. The Hydra Emperor boss has three different heads, each one possessing a different attack, that certainly makes the fight more intense. The only boss that I felt was poorly designed was the Sirian Darklord.
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