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Old 03-30-2004, 12:47 PM   #1   Add To Ignore List  
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Default The Anti-Patriot Thread

This thread is created as an outlet for those that wish to respect Booger's request to keep anti-patriotic messages out of the Patriotic Websites? thread. While it was very tempting to put in my two cents there, I thought it would be better to create a separate thread for these pennies.

Be wary of people that claim they are fighting for justice. What they are fighting for is to impose their views of right and wrong on everyone else.
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Old 03-30-2004, 12:55 PM   #2   Add To Ignore List  
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Thank you, MeadowMuffin. That was quite thoughtful of you.
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Old 03-30-2004, 01:09 PM   #3   Add To Ignore List  
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As I see it we shouldn't even be there but since they are over there I'll support them.

What pissed me off is that we had the balls to call it Operation Iraqi Freedom

You cannot give ppl freedom they must earn it for them selves. If the Iraqi ppl wanted to get rid of Hussein bad enough they would revolt in mass. We just went in blew the place up and had fire fights in the streets then stated that the Iraqi ppl were free.

Overthrowing another countries government that you had problems with doesn't free the ppl of that country. If the ppl wanted to brake from Hussein they would have done so, if they needed help they would have to ask for it. You cannot come in uninvited and overthrow a government and be thanked.
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Old 03-30-2004, 01:09 PM   #4   Add To Ignore List  
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From the "Blind Patriotism" thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alien Slayer
Sledge, I have always liked and respected you, but for some reason you seem bent on ruining Booger's thread. I really don't blame you for your views if you are against patriotism, but as was asked nicely, it shouldn't be in this thread. This thread is supposed to be about positive spins on patriotism to lift Booger's wife's spirits. Let's all try to be civil here and respect the man's wishes.
Pardon me for being the wet blanket of reality. If something is a bad idea, then it is a bad idea and no number of emails from soldiers' mothers will ever change that.

When sober reality clashes with making booger's wife happy and reality loses, that is a giant-ass flashing-red warning sign we should all be looking at. I apologize for making people think. I'll never do that again on this forum.
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Old 03-30-2004, 01:13 PM   #5   Add To Ignore List  
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Sledge the thread was for patriotism. Your views are welcomed but when stated that there should be no anti-bush/war then you should respect that. Anyways Sledge's ideas are in fact patriotic. To go against your country is just as patriotic as blindly following it.
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Old 03-30-2004, 01:28 PM   #6   Add To Ignore List  
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Patriotism doesn't necessarily mean blind-patriotism. Imnsho, we had some good reasons for the Iraqi conflict. Unfortunately, the good reasons got drowned out due to all the noise about WMD.

And, Sledge, your wet blanket of 'reality' is merely your opinion. There are a lot of people in this country besides mothers of soldiers who agree with what we're doing over there. I don't mind debating the issue, but just that once I wanted to keep the thread focused on gathering resources... instead of having it degenerate into a shouting match between two sides of an issue. We've all heard both sides of the argument. Yelling back and forth at each other isn't going to change anyone's opinion.

On that note, I'll leave this thread. Although it wasn't specifically stated that people shouldn't post pro-patriotic messages in here, I figure it's only fair to give you anti-patriotic folks some space to reinforce your beliefs.
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Old 03-30-2004, 01:35 PM   #7   Add To Ignore List  
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The blind patriotism was just to compare what positive patriotic ppl think of negative patriotic ppl and vise versa
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Old 03-30-2004, 01:48 PM   #8   Add To Ignore List  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booger
Patriotism doesn't necessarily mean blind-patriotism.
If you're only going to accentuate the positive in that thread, then yes it is blind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booger
Imnsho, we had some good reasons for the Iraqi conflict. Unfortunately, the good reasons got drowned out due to all the noise about WMD.
Tell that to Richard Clarke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booger
And, Sledge, your wet blanket of 'reality' is merely your opinion.
And it's "merely" the opinion of nearly every other country in existence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by booger
There are a lot of people in this country besides mothers of soldiers who agree with what we're doing over there.
Until their loved ones arrive home in a pine box with a flag draped over it.
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Old 03-30-2004, 04:29 PM   #9   Add To Ignore List  
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**** this preemptive strike.

bush is just a little whiney girl going after saddam, just because saddam tried to have his father assassinated.

now, as for the hunt for bin laden, he attacked us, go go for it dude, but as for saddam, things have gotten worse over there since desert storm, thanks to us.

we needed to think things through before rushing into things.

at least pre-desert storm, everyone in iraq had health care paid for by the state and living conditions were mediocre. things were ok, since then, the radiation and such has caused a skyrocket in infant mortality, among other things leading to other things.

if we could have just sent a few covert operatives over there to assassinate saddam and the others then we would have had a far better situation instead of a full blown war.

there is no need for a big clumsy war when a small team of specialists can slice into a situation and precisely handle it.

i agree the entire regime was evil, but if you took out thier leaders, what would they do? it would be chaos, and THEN the u.s. could step in and 'try to help' and recover what was slavagable over there, as opposed to killing countless innocents.

i believe in the sacrifice of 100 innocents to save 100 million, but only if there are no other options. there are tons of options other than war. then again, every war we ever had boosted the economy tenfold. but why hasnt this one? maybe because tenfold more people see no point in invading iraq?
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Old 03-30-2004, 06:27 PM   #10   Add To Ignore List  
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sorry Kenji, but politics of that region would not allow it. merely another suddam would take his place if he were assasinated. That or the entire country would turn into a civil war.
far more civilian would die in a situation like that. Which is also why the majority, 70% do not want the us to leave until there is a semi-stable govt. in place.

thigns are not so black and white as everyone here seems they would like them to be.
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Old 03-30-2004, 07:28 PM   #11   Add To Ignore List  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Ms
What pissed me off is that we had the balls to call it Operation Iraqi Freedom

You cannot give ppl freedom they must earn it for them selves.
America did not really win our freedom. France got most of it. The Patriots (citizens) lost most battles. George Washington only won a few. I might even be tempted to say the Iraqis are doing better than we did. Although, the threat is from within almost entirely, whereas the American revolution was mainly the British, with some Tories who joined in with the limeys.

Guess what, someone had to do it. There have been more than a few attempts at revolution over there, not all of which were badly planned. Saddam just had such great control over the people that actions were squelched. I really don't care if Bush lied about WMD, he would have never had the support he had to go in if he told us "these other people need billions of our dollars, our time, and the lives of some of our soldiers" because most people (the vocal ones at least) are selfish cowards. Of course there were other reasons, and for you people who hate Bush completely, there ARE people who make decisions besides him. As for the oil issue, it is almost as laughable as the people who say that the government uses the drug trade to finance private endeavors.

We could have, however, done a better job militarily. I think I may have said this before, but we are sadwhiched between two countries who despise us, and are now pouring terrorists in from both sides against the flanks of our forces, which are arrayed for the most part north-south. We have Iran which is arguably a bigger threat to both ourselves, but the stability of the region, which would have been the next logical step, what with Afghanistan right on the other side from Iraq. Then we have Syria, who (not sure of the status of the government, but the population doesn't seem to be pro-US) are causing a lot of problems in both Palestine/Israel, and now Iraq.









Or so it seems from my point of view.
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Old 03-30-2004, 08:52 PM   #12   Add To Ignore List  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Ms
If the Iraqi ppl wanted to get rid of Hussein bad enough they would revolt in mass.
I agree with you on that one. Thing is, well, they didn't.

People that are all pissed off about not finding WMD's are missing the point. Yes, it was a concern, but not the primary one.
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Old 03-30-2004, 09:32 PM   #13   Add To Ignore List  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuriken
America did not really win our freedom. France got most of it.

We asked France for help and France wouldn't do a damn thing until we started winning battles. But that matter not the point is that we started it and we asked for help. The Iraqi ppl didn't start anything and never asked for help.
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Old 03-30-2004, 09:38 PM   #14   Add To Ignore List  
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actauly, at the end of the gulf war, we told them we would help, we told them to revolt.. and we didn't lift a finger as they were slaughtered.

thuogh its adebate what we really could have done, since suddam still had control over most of his chemicals. personaly i think we coudl have supported the revolt, and if it caved in from teh inside, the regime woudl not use them wmd's. However, in my humble opinion, if we had forcibily corned suddam, he would have struck out with everything he had.. which was a lot. So we should have supported the revolt, thuogh we did not.
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Old 03-30-2004, 10:59 PM   #15   Add To Ignore List  
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Iraq has degenerated from a war of two soveriegn powers into THE war on terrorism. the fighting happening there now is home grown militia and foriegn fighters slugging it out with the coalition troops over what they (the bad guys) think is to be the future of the whole middle east and islam. if the bad guys win it will set a precedent for militant islam that will set the the whole islamic world on fire and prove once and for all that insurgencies and terrorism, and especially suicide bombings are truly good islamic traits.

they like to throw around the words Jihad, and Martyr over here. militant fundementalists turnd those words into weapons against anyone who doesn't agree with them. they twisted them to mean not struggle for truth (jihad), and not hero or saint (martyr) but into armed insurgency, terrorism, and suicide attacks.

I happen to know a lot of muslims being where I am and am impressed by how much faith they have and how deeply it runs. almost all of them see terrorism as un-islamic, but I can see whole generations being brought up on the fundamentalist (militant) view of things if we lose in Iraq. it will become a more openly political way for this whole region to express it's interests and we will have even more wars because of it.

we are doing the right thing by being there, and at least we aren't fighting in the streets of america. if the bad guys win.....I predict ten years or sooner after we will be.
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Old 03-30-2004, 11:03 PM   #16   Add To Ignore List  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuriken
America did not really win our freedom. France got most of it. The Patriots (citizens) lost most battles.

I suggest you review your history.
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Old 03-30-2004, 11:15 PM   #17   Add To Ignore List  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Ms
Sledge the thread was for patriotism. Your views are welcomed but when stated that there should be no anti-bush/war then you should respect that. Anyways Sledge's ideas are in fact patriotic. To go against your country is just as patriotic as blindly following it.
Thanks _Ms.
Sledge, that was all I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to stifle your views or opinions. This is the perfect thread for you to open up how you feel against blind patriotism or what not. Booger's thread just wasn't the place for it. I mean, if we all are trying to respect each other.
Didn't mean to upset you and make you think you couldn't speak your mind.
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Old 03-31-2004, 03:10 AM   #18   Add To Ignore List  
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I will agree that freedom is something that people have to want badly enough to get it. As far as defending freedom goes, the war on terrorism has done more for destroying freedom than preserving it. The way things are going, government agencies will give themselves the power to put everyone under surveilance and conduct warrantless searches on a regular basis.

By the time the US gets done eliminating terrorism, we will have no privacy, no security in our homes and no foreign born persons will be able to even get into the country.

But....we'll be free.
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Old 03-31-2004, 09:17 AM   #19   Add To Ignore List  
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France doing all the work in us gaining freedom? OMG! Sir, history books are for reading not pounding your head with. Granted France helped ALOT but we still faught our asses off. Not to mention you didn't fully quote MS.

Quote:
Overthrowing another countries government that you had problems with doesn't free the ppl of that country. If the ppl wanted to brake from Hussein they would have done so, if they needed help they would have to ask for it.
That's an important part you missed there. See he stated that if they asked for it, we then should of helped them. Now if my American history memory is correct, we ASKED the French for help. And thankfully they did instead of watching us get slaughtered and then coming ten years later with their own objectives stating it's for American Freedom. Oh my I just used the past to allude to the future! I deserve a freaking cookie!
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Old 03-31-2004, 09:28 AM   #20   Add To Ignore List  
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Its really impressive how the italian population (me included) managed to get so attracted by the whole 'war against terrorism'. And finally managed to actually feel a part of it.

Honestly i dont have a good opinion of Bush, or my own government and the british. But that's another discussion.

This recent war was a serious mistake (i don't mean to offend any other opinion here), but i really believe that it had NOTHING to do with patriotism, but was actually egoistic and an act of disrespect.

Saddam could have been taken out of his government by other means, and it would have been nice to leave a small percentage of Iraq intact, instead of destroying it all and then making american and english companies rebuild what was destroyed.

But then again, i expect to be flamed.
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Old 03-31-2004, 09:36 AM   #21   Add To Ignore List  
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F00D DID YOU SAY SOMETHING WE AMERICANS DID WAS A MISTAKE!? MAN YOU'RE GONNA GET IT NOW!!!! I MEAN I DO AGREE WITH YOU BUT IF I DON'T TYPE IN ALL CAPS AND ATTACK YOU I'LL BE UNPATRIOTIC!!!!!!!
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Old 03-31-2004, 09:39 AM   #22   Add To Ignore List  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDI

F00D DID YOU SAY SOMETHING WE AMERICANS DID WAS A MISTAKE!? MAN YOU'RE GONNA GET IT NOW!!!! I MEAN I DO AGREE WITH YOU BUT IF I DON'T TYPE IN ALL CAPS AND ATTACK YOU I'LL BE UNPATRIOTIC!!!!!!!


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Old 03-31-2004, 03:09 PM   #23   Add To Ignore List  
 
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OK guys. I have read your opinions and I can accept them and respect them. But I must say that when this "Oil for Food" scandal is all said and done, you guys thinking that Bush was wrong over Iraq and the war on terror will be eating your words. The truth is that high level officials in the French and Russian governments, high ranking members of the UN including Kofi Annan's no. 2 man AND Kofi's son were profitting off of Saddam and the sanctions by making kickbacks and taking bribes. Terrorists were running around Iraq with impunity including Abu Nidal and Abu Assan. Sometimes I read what you guys post and I just roll my eyes and get a brian cramp at how truely UNinformed most of the posts are that get posted on these forums about such things.

Has anyone actually took the trouble to understand the military strategy of gaining forward deplyed positions in Iraq for fighting the war on terror? Let me see by taking Iraq what countries that support terrorism are effectively surrounded? Anyone care to guess? Furthermore anyone know that Iraq was a major crossroads for terrorists traveling the world to ply thier trade? Gee, what does removing the Hussein regime do to that? What about all those "Oil for Food" kick backs that Saddam was getting and using to pay the families of suicide bombers and to fund terrorist traing camps in Iraq (they existed it's all on the record), including the one with the Boing 707 aircraft? Do ya think that maybe that lose of revenew could be hindering terrorism? I'm just going to sit back and watch. It's gonna be real fun when all of you jaws drop when the truth comes out.



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Old 03-31-2004, 04:19 PM   #24   Add To Ignore List  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo
OK guys. I have read your opinions and I can accept them and respect them.
And here comes the part where you contradict yourself

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo
But I must say that when this "Oil for Food" scandal is all said and done, you guys thinking that Bush was wrong over Iraq and the war on terror will be eating your words. The truth is that high level officials in the French and Russian governments, high ranking members of the UN including Kofi Annan's no. 2 man AND Kofi's son were profitting off of Saddam and the sanctions by making kickbacks and taking bribes. Terrorists were running around Iraq with impunity including Abu Nidal and Abu Assan. Sometimes I read what you guys post and I just roll my eyes and get a brian cramp at how truely UNinformed most of the posts are that get posted on these forums about such things.
Actually, I did already know this. That just means more people/countries other than Saddam are guilty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo
Has anyone actually took the trouble to understand the military strategy of gaining forward deplyed positions in Iraq for fighting the war on terror? Let me see by taking Iraq what countries that support terrorism are effectively surrounded? Anyone care to guess? Furthermore anyone know that Iraq was a major crossroads for terrorists traveling the world to ply thier trade? Gee, what does removing the Hussein regime do to that?
Al Qaida are a rather streetsmart bunch. If Iraq is denied to them, they'll just go somewhere else. How long did their operatives live in America before 9/11? How long have we been chasing Bin Laden through the hills of Eastern Afghanistan/Western Pakistan and still not found him? The world is a big place and Bin Laden still has access to lots of cash.

Actually, Bin Laden is rather happy that Saddam is gone. One of his goals was the removal of Saddam and we have obliged him. The only question is will democracy stick or will it mutate into yet another fundamentalist regime? Gulf War III in 2040 anyone (only if it's a re-election year )?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo
What about all those "Oil for Food" kick backs that Saddam was getting and using to pay the families of suicide bombers and to fund terrorist traing camps in Iraq (they existed it's all on the record), including the one with the Boing 707 aircraft? Do ya think that maybe that lose of revenew could be hindering terrorism?
As long as people pull up to the local gas station and fill up their 10mpg SUVs with Middle Eastern petrol, money will slowly filter its way back to these people whether or not Saddam is around. If everyone drove an auto that got 40mpg, the US would not need to import any oil. Freedom begins at 40.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lupo
I'm just going to sit back and watch. It's gonna be real fun when all of you jaws drop when the truth comes out.
I have to do it..

You want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
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Old 03-31-2004, 04:22 PM   #25   Add To Ignore List  
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Bah, I just think its good we got rid of saddam, and hopefully we can do the same with bin laden. Other than that, I really don't care to much about this stuff, and lengthy debates seem pointless untill the "more final" outcome occurs and the effects of this are actually realised instead of thought about.
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Old 03-31-2004, 10:20 PM   #26   Add To Ignore List  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strossos
Bah, I just think its good we got rid of saddam, and hopefully we can do the same with bin laden. Other than that, I really don't care to much about this stuff, and lengthy debates seem pointless untill the "more final" outcome occurs and the effects of this are actually realised instead of thought about.
You know what's lengthy? An Iraqi penis can measure up to 23 inches!
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Old 03-31-2004, 10:39 PM   #27   Add To Ignore List  
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Old 03-31-2004, 11:54 PM   #28   Add To Ignore List  
 
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Sorry Sledge but what you wrote is not realy a refutation of anything I said. Bin Ladden allowed some al qaeda opperatives to train in iraq. The part about his wanting Hussien gone is mostly bullshit. Bin Ladden would ceratinly use husein's help if he could. He used US support against the Soviets or did you forget that little fact. I really think you are blinded by ideology on this.

Besides I did not contradict myself. Show me where I contradicted myself if you would be so kind. I would truely appreciate it since you didn't make it clear how I did that. Yah others are guilty besides Hussien. All the main antagonists to getting rid of Saddamm are guilty. They are guilty of helping Saddam fund terrorism by giving him kickbacks in exchange for taking bribes. They are also guilty of allowing hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's to starve, some to death. And of depriving iraqi's of medical treatments. Nice people. By the way these are also the very same folks who caused Pres. Bush to stall for months in invading iraq given Hussein time to hide or get rid of the KNOWN WMDs. Sorry man. But it won't fly. I'm letting this go. You are not being genuine. I have legitimate irrefutable points that you cannot explain and you dump the damn partyline on me. I cannot discuss this stuff with you until you take your head out of the sand. With all due respect. I shall retire from this discourse now. Unless yo care to conceed obvious points and show me that you are prepared to give and take. Right now it's your way or the highway. I'm taking the highway.



--Lupo



P.S. When there is fighting in the streets here in the US because people didn't take thier heads out of the sand until it was too late. I will have already set up an outpost and be engaged in serious insergency operations. At that point in time anyone not against them are with them, in my book.
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Old 04-01-2004, 04:16 AM   #29   Add To Ignore List  
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"P.S. When there is fighting in the streets here in the US because people didn't take thier heads out of the sand until it was too late. I will have already set up an outpost and be engaged in serious insergency operations. At that point in time anyone not against them are with them, in my book."




amen brother.
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Old 04-01-2004, 08:40 AM   #30   Add To Ignore List  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZDI
You know what's lengthy? An Iraqi penis can measure up to 23 inches!

Wow! That is truly amazing, all the Iraqis should be given medals of honor!
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